Religion and Politics

Big0ne

Shared on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 09:09

Before I get too deep into this blog I should start by stating that this blog in no way is a reflection of the policy of this site.  Though I admit a recent topic brought up in the Off Topic forum was the reason the wheels in my head started spinning, this isn't really about that.  If the site's policy is No Religion, No Politics on the general boards, then live with it or get out.  And just as an aside...if that is the policy I would ask the mods to enforce it evenly.  There's times where such a discussion is allowed to go on because "it's been polite so far".  That's no excuse.  Either the policy exists and is enforced or there's no policy.  But I digress..

 

There's an oft stated rule that one should not discuss religion and politics (R & P) in polite society.  When exactly did that come to be and really, if we were a polite society wouldn't it be easier to discuss R & P?  It seems like the Greeks among others often discussed these topics often and at length openly.  Of course they called it philosophy but let's face it, that's what philosophy is. 

So we go about our lives telling or at the very least demonstrating to our kids, friends and co-workers that these issues are taboo and best left kept to oneself.  Is that really the best way to progress as a society though?  If I just keep my views to myself, how will my views ever be challenged?  How will I learn where my shortcomings in thought are?  How will I learn to reinforce those areas of thought were I know that I'm right?  It seems like keeping all this bottled up inside stagnates growth for the sake of politeness instead of teaching us to be polite for the sake of growth.

That's the real problem.  We are no longer a polite society.  The internet, email and other forms of distant and anonymous communication has allowed us to devolve into our most base natures because we know that there are little to no consequences for doing so.  Let's face it, our base natures aren't so pretty.  Spend an hour on XBL with strangers and you know that's true.

Instead of railing against this trend though, we either celebrate it or promote it via our silence.  "Don't talk R & P cause you're just gonna stir up trouble and make enemies."  So instead of creating supposed enemies by our discussion we create loneliness and/or polarization by our silence.  Would it not be better to teach our kids early on that we can and should discuss these topics on semi-regular basis but that we must do so with politeness and kindness?  And by teach I mean actually work at it.  Not just say "Be nice about it when you're in class" but actually discipline kids for being harsh when they are rude and set the example for them by having the discussions civilly ourselves. 

Ultimately, we all know that we will never come to full agreement about, virtually any topic.  Is that a reason to just shut up?  I guess the point that I'm making poorly and with rambling effort is this... The problem isn't Religion and Politics, the problem is you.  And yes, sometimes the problem is me.  I guess I'd rather tackle the real problem of our own civility rather than stifle debate and discussion.  Doing so only treats symptoms and not the disease.

Comments

dkhodz's picture
Submitted by dkhodz on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 09:28
Speaking of politics, if you ever run for office, you've got my vote.
ekattan's picture
Submitted by ekattan on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 09:31
Religion and politics are too polarized. Many people have become too fanatical about either topic. Just listening or reading an argument gets the blood boiling for some. Its good and informative to have an argument once in a while. If we wouldn't question any of these topics we would be mindless sheep.
FadeIntoBlack's picture
Submitted by FadeIntoBlack on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 10:24
I post or answer the occasional thing, with only the intent of hopefully challenging someone to question their thinking. I now pick these very rarely because there are 3 or 4 on the right and a couple on the left that jump all over them. I'm with you...I like to challenge my thinking, and I do this by paying attention mostly to the side that I have less agreement with. Problem is, most live in a shell and ego's get in the way of thinking "around" an issue rather than bulldozing through it.
Fish66's picture
Submitted by Fish66 on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 10:42
It's a shame we have allowed ourselves to be muzzled. This site is exclusive to adults who grew up in a world that was very open to discussion and blunt statements. Now that WE are the adults, why do some of us scream foul from the highest Soap box when anyone tries to have a conversation or even heated debate about R&P? Are they so displeased with themselves that they think we should all keep quiet with our heads in the sand instead of being verbally open, like it or not, like our Parents and Grandparents. Was it wrong of them? I think we should ALL remember that WE are the Adults now and we cannot run our lives, country or world without our eyes and ears open to what is happening with the memory of what has happened. Rant over ;)
Castlemonster's picture
Submitted by Castlemonster on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 10:52
"That's the real problem. We are no longer a polite society." This is a bullshit statement. You need to get a fucking life and hang out with real people like me and then you will see that we have not lost our politeness. Dumb ass. ;) :D :lol:
CMA's picture
Submitted by CMA on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 10:54
I think that restricting talk about "religions" just closes the doors for certain view points to speak about their beliefs and openly allows for the common secular school taught belief to be openly spoken about. I find it to be a missclassification that atheism/ humanism is not considered a religion by our society and government. A belief about God builds your worldview and that in turn shapes your decision making and actions.
TheDastard's picture
Submitted by TheDastard on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 11:13
What ek said, combined with the fact that people 1) feel they have a right not to be offended, 2) feel that others need to conform to their way of thinking, and 3) apparently are so weak in their beliefs that a nipple slip is sufficient to bring down their entire belief system. Good post.
takadud1's picture
Submitted by takadud1 on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 11:39
Part of the issue might be due to the way we communicate now - as was suggested earlier. Much communication today is no in person and a lot of it is becoming just text. It seems like a lot of people become increasingly uncomfortable communicating in person or just by voice. Think of how many people you might know (or even a personal instance) when an email or text is so much easier (but not necessarily the most effective) way to state a point. Writing well seems to be a dying art for most of our society right at the time when much of communication is becoming textual again. So much is lost when communicating just in black and white because most of what we say is not black/white.
Stryker927's picture
Submitted by Stryker927 on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 13:00
I also think people don't know the difference between discussing a topic and arguing a position. Discussing a topic can be polite and very impersonal. Allowing new viewpoints to be shared and then allowing people to change or re-enforce their own viewpoint based on what they have learned. Arguing a position generally is done so with the intent to persuade others to your viewpiont. So there is more focus on discrediting the opposite viewpoint. But I'll be honest, in most of the debates on these topics I have seen in forums here on 2o2p there was more ignorance than knowledge. A lot of people talking about things or arguing viewpionts that they themselves don't really understand fully. I don't mean that negatively, I think it's a social pandemic where we have come to rely on our government leaders to know the law, religious leaders to know the scriptures, and have failed to find out for ourselves what the "truth" is. This has all lead to confusion, misunderstanding, and ignorance coupled with people's intolerance and lack of responsibility for what is being said/typed. The result is chaos and no value whatsoever coming from those "discussions".
Deman267's picture
Submitted by Deman267 on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 13:42
If my viewpoint says that what you believe in is a fairy tale and your politics are actually injurious to others,how can we be polite about it?
hilskie's picture
Submitted by hilskie on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 13:55
Your last paragraph is BRILLIANT! Totally sums up what I think about talking about R&P! Nice write up, Big!
Big0ne's picture
Submitted by Big0ne on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 14:04
Deman - I think it's pretty simple. If my child is running around and telling other kids that gays should be killed, I don't think the best way to correct him will be to tell him to "shut his filthy whore f'ing mouth you little douchebag son of a...." I can talk to him about what made him come to that conclusion, where he's flawed in his thinking and so forth. Just blasting him with equally vile insults will not be nearly as effective long term.
TheDastard's picture
Submitted by TheDastard on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 14:11
Big...you and Deman both have points. You have some power over your kid. So you might be able to modify his behavior. But on the net (and to a lesser extent in person) often the person presenting a bizarre opinion, or the person interpreting it as such, have no social contract and therefore the only choices are yell louder or leave. Odds are both views are wrong, but neither can communicate in such a way as to see it.
Big0ne's picture
Submitted by Big0ne on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 14:26
Maybe the issue is lack of social contract then. Sure I have no "power" over Dman or whatever he chooses to believe. However, don't I have a responsibility to society at large to promote peace? Is it all just about me and screw the rest of you bastards? I don't deny that there are times when someone is spewing a viewpoint that is promoting an immediate danger to others. Let's not base our everyday world view on the extremes though. I think part of being civil is recognizing that we can discern the "I strongly disagree with you" from the "what you just said poses a clear and present danger to someone." So having typed that I realize that my example was on the extreme side and therefore not a very good one.
dkhodz's picture
Submitted by dkhodz on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 14:53
Ooooh, Deman got pwned. And Dastard just reinforced Biggie's argument without even realizing it. But this thread is boring. Needs more rhetoric, hyperbole and vitriolic ad hominem attacks.
darth_chibius's picture
Submitted by darth_chibius on Mon, 11/16/2009 - 15:10
WTF, no meltdowns in the comments section, you're fucking failing me 2o2p where's the tranny? I need him to stir some shit up
TheDastard's picture
Submitted by TheDastard on Tue, 11/17/2009 - 21:49
Bastards. You are all ignorant bastards...Is that a squirrel?
ekattan's picture
Submitted by ekattan on Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:13
Squirrel!!!

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