Sexism, Gaming, Third Wave Feminism and 2old2play

J-Cat

Shared on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:06

These are my comments from Coulow's blog. I editted them a bit here, expanded them.

All right... let's start wome hate in the old J-C's direction, shall we?

When it comes to actual gaming... women and men are equal. Men's fingers/women's fingers... it's all the same. Although I wonder since guys are supposed to be better at spatial problems if guys would "get" 3-D maps faster than women. But as my fave gamer JeepChick once told me "Women are great at gaming, all that time spent knitting and gossiping. And you can quote me on that." I just did, my sweet! So maybe the ladies DO have the edge over the guys. Or more likely it's an even match.

What this article is about, however, is about the games industry, sexism and feminism, not gaming prowess.

It's sorta rough for women out there in that gamers can be sexist. Look. For every Timmy calling a guy a fucking asshole. I have 5 asking to see my boobs. Whenever a guy screws up, he's a fucking noob. Whenever I screw up, it's "cause I'm a girl, and girls can't play." I was told by some kid that he wanted to look me in the eyes while he raped me. And not in the "haha you got pwned" type of rape*. It isn't the women who are making sex an issue.... it's the guys who make it an issue.

Some say that identifying people by their sex doesn't make sense. We are all people after all... gender doesn't *really* count. But does it? See... being a man is ... well it's the default for a lot of things. Think of a CEO: what do you think of? Old guy in a suit, right? What about a gamer... we picture a guy. And if we picture a girl... it's a HAWT gamer-girl... not a normal woman. In fact, just a fantasy for... that's right... the guys.

So it's easy for guys to say "oh... gender doesn't play into things" because it doesn't... for you. But it does for me: because I am not the default... I am the exception to the rule. So I see things that you don't. I see how few decent female characters there are: we are often regulated to the roles of underclothed ice bitches, sexy jailbait or princess waiting to be rescued by a plumber. I notice that there are few women creating games. I notice when the notion of the sexy gamer is commodified and I notice that most of the guys comment on how horrible those women look. And don't sit there are give me every exception to the above. The stereotype is there... and it gets play... often.

And it's not just the industry... it's the community. I love 2o2p... you guys know that. I spend quite a bit of energy writing and helping out as much as I can. I don't do that cause i hate it here. I love it here. I love it here in spite of it's locker room mentality. In fact: 2o2p is MUCH better than most of the internet. But let's look at 2o2p.

* A woman writes an interesting blog: and there is a controversy. "She only gets hits... cause she's a woman." Not cause she posts interesting blogs.

* Boobs: are they good? thread... Prime example of objectification of women. And when the opposite happens by accident (a baner ad) or not-so accident (LB posts good looking guys for me) there are complaints instantly. Guys are horrified. Hey guess what.... the women deal with this all the time.

* Again: another thread talks about how disgusting breastfeeding is. And when the thread gets locked down... the mod posts a picture of some chick's tits.

* Many, many avatars and gifs that feature jiggling boobs. More "Women as objects... not as people" mentality. And I know, most of you are husbands and fathers who dearly love the women in your life. But at the same time, the prevalence of these images on the site state that you view women, not as a person with thoughts and feeling, but as a jiggly, giggly plaything created for your gaze.

* There are complaints because the women have one safe place for the ladies to get away from this and to support each other. (Guys have a safe place... it's called the rest of 2o2p)

* And on an personal note: before Lan: my husband reminded me not to drink any open drinks and to watch my back. After all: I am going to party with a bunch of strange men, and that can be a dangerous place for a woman. How many of you guys got the same talk from your spouse? One guy at the lan asked my why I wasn't drinking form a bottle I had brought. I told him that I had left it out and that I don't drink from open bottles. He was floored. Never once occured to him. Why? He's a guy. And that's my point. He doesn't "see" the sexism.

* A thread about when a woman is sexually harrassed, the argument is made by many that it's good for her career. You know. Cause she's pretty. And pretty girls like being eye candy for the boys.

* General body snark. Look at any thread that mentions women, and you get guys saying how ugly these women are. These airbrushed, size 3, silicone enhanced women are not perfect.

* a thread goes off track and talks about how women's sports should be sexy in order to get a guy's dollars. Cause the short dresses for figure skaters are there just to get guys to watch. Cause guys are known for watching figure skating.

Now: if there is sexism here.... think about how bad it is "out there"

The author of the article that started this mess discusses sexism but how subtle it is. It's no longer (necessarily) just Timmies standing up and saying "Ha... Chicks fucken suck man..." Listen to what the author of the article said:

***

I have a confession to make; without any good reason, I've always viewed modern day feminists with scorn and suspicion, believing the clichéd caricatures of dogmatic, man-hating, bra-burning extremists so often lampooned by our status quo loving society. Sure, the movement was important when women were fighting for the vote at the turn of the last century, and in the 60s and 70s when they fought for liberation from society's imposed apron strings. But growing up in the 80s and 90s I thought things were fine and that people who persisted in fighting the fight were making a fuss about nothing.

However, when I was asked to write about women in gaming and started to conduct research on the subject and to reflect on my own experiences as a female gamer and games journalist, I realised that my knee-jerk reactions were born out of ignorance and that both the issues, and the way they are approached and presented by modern day campaigners for women's equal rights, are far more subtle and complex than my outmoded and (ironically) hysterical views had previously accommodated.

**

Identifying sexsim, in fact calling out any injustice does not make me weak. Yes, I am sure all of you know a women who isn't fazed by this and they are paragons of light. Great. That's fine. For them. Are they on the site? I am sure you can think of many examples of reverse sexism. That's not right, and so you should be just as concerned as I am. Sexism for one is sexism for all. Injustice against one is injustice against all. Yes, 2o2p is about games, and games are supposed to be fun. To that I say: we are adults, and as adults we can recognise when something isn't right.

Sexism is subtle. And it's there. Cause I see it. Cause I deal with it and cause I try in my own way to fight against it *every fucking day*.

So... there it is... try not to hate on me too much, K?

* And while we're at it... why are we using the term "rape" a horrible, disgusting act of extreme violence against women for something as trivial as a video game?

J-Cat's blog
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Comments

Submitted by YEM on Wed, 03/31/2010 - 08:15

@phreaks So the Ladies Playground is for men? :lol:

Submitted by Isstasi on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 15:44

As for the term rape, the internet has all but killed shock value, find me 5 truly obscene terms in use today and I can name you 25 that would still shock our parents. So really the only way to make people notice you is through sexism and racism. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/ As for sexism, one day, gaming will be just as sexist as tv or movies, it will never be better than that. Personally I find most romantic comedies as sexist as movies aimed at men, its all exploitation based on a stereotypical audience

Submitted by meemoos on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 20:35

The "Ladies playground" is for everyone--but only women can (or i should say--are supposed to) post. Hmmm, weird. Face it!! Most (not all) men that are BEAT by a GIRL on an xbox game get PISSED!! You know it, I know it. Maybe in real life the guys WANT to call a chick a bitch, cunt, blah blah blah to her face but he doesn't--but in a game? You bet! I can't see you, you can't see me--so when he says it on xbox..that's called chicken shit---but,,,I'm going to deal it right back at him cuz that's how I roll! If I hear real bad shit coming out of a dude's mouth? He's going down and I mean down!--xbox ban! And if he sends me a picture of his tiny-weenie? I laugh---and then he's going down! (after I show everyone else the "tiny weenie) BRING IT!

Submitted by Fish66 on Wed, 03/31/2010 - 12:03

I have to agree with Dastard and the other like it, I don't feel like scrolling up. Gaming like most things are open to everyone and anyone. But if ya want to play you gotta deal with the game and the players.

Submitted by V10L3N7_JAY on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:11

I'm not about to comment on this one way or the other but one thing I will say is the act of rape, isn't always against women.

Submitted by TheDastard on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:20

You have a ton of good points and I don't have time to comment. Bottom line is that Men are jerks. Timmies are...well, Timmies...what do you expect? But video games are little different than the pron industry. The primary customer's are immature men/boys. So the product is tuned that way. And no, that doesn't make it right...without some explanation, I'm already in trouble. But you are right to start the dialog. And to get the hate flowing my way, women use the double standard when it suits them, and then bitch when it doesn't. It cuts both ways.

Submitted by J-Cat on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:20

of course... rape isn't always about women... but it mostly is. Especially when you look intrnationally where rape is used as a method of genocide.

Submitted by Maxxie on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:25

I think this is a provocative, well thought out and solidly example supported post. Based on my experiences, I have to say I agree with much of what has been observed in this article, here and in the industry in general. However, I have one point of contention in terms of terminology use. The use of the term "reverse sexism" in my view is the same as the use of the term "reverse racism." By adding "reverse" it implies a bias of sorts. In my humble view, sexism is sexism whether perpetrated by a woman toward a man, or a man toward a woman as racism is racism when one person has issues with another person solely based on their race - it doesn't matter which way the racists views are filtered. To those affected it's all the same sort of objectification, hate or intolerance as the case may be. Just saying.

Submitted by FadeIntoBlack on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:31

I'm all for a little women's rights. Having been raised by a single mother, and having been a high level manager in a completely male dominated industry, I see all the time how women are impacted by things/speech/action that are considered status quo. I have to agree with Dastard to tack on though...it can be manipulated by many women (not all) to their advantage. I don't say it as a negative necessarily, because sometimes and in some situations I have to respect that some women have been left with that as the only tool they have to fight back. Lastly, the rape thing is offensive for both genders. Have to keep in mind that male-male rape has less than 10% report rate. I agree that it happens most often to women, but it is and should be offensive to both no matter what genders are involved. Remember how I once told you that you can consider yourself a "trailblazer for women's equality in gaming"? The entire country needs more strong women in all aspects of our life and that includes gaming.

Submitted by Rau on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:32

When people make generalizing statements either way, I tend to try and get to their intent. Is this person trying to be an asshole, are they inarticulate, are they truly sexually imature etc... Once you figure that out, you make the choice about how you will respond. People tend to categorize or "pigeon hole" people in order to make themselves more comfortable, to allow themselves to understand a situation based on past experiences, to make themselves feel better about their shitty lives at the expense of others etc... I think that sexism is just one of those tools such as racism. One caveat though, people tend to do this because it actually takes some fucking effort to get know a person as an individual, which actually might require that person to share some of their shallow existence as well.

Submitted by SPARHAWK25 on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:35

I agree on most of the points. I did not know how bad it was until I started gaming a lot with a female gamer from 2old2play, and the comments and abuse she gets before and after kicking someone's ass amazes me. Most nights she will get hate mail. She is tough, and handles it better than I would. As far as 2old2play...some posts should obviously be moved, and some may just be distasteful, Others I would not see an issue with, but then again, I am viewing them through my eyes. I have probably offended many here, but I would hope it has never been associated with sexism or racism. I will admit sometimes I want to cover myself in pudding and go into the womens forum, but I am afraid, very afraid.

Submitted by TheDastard on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:40

Let's stir the pot... The girls say they want to be treated like one of the guys, but ... guys aren't always nice and it's not always fun. I get called a douchebag, pussy, and asshole, and told to fuck off on a daily basis. Be careful what you ask for. See what I get from expressing opinions that some of the ladies don't like? And someone calls you a "bitch" and it bothers you? In truth this might be less about sexism and more about respect. You want it. That's fine. But ladies, guys don't have it showered on them either and you sure as fuck are not going to find it on XBL. We just toughen up and push our way through. So be a bitch and leave the whiners in your dust.

Submitted by darth_chibius on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:42

you have to admit though, women sports are boring as hell without eye candy.........................................BOOBS!

Submitted by J-Cat on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 12:55

@Dastard... Call me an asshole... douchebags, fuckwit whatever. Those things have nothing to do with my gender. Also... calling you a pussy (female) is an insult because youare a man. It's taking you... and accusing you of something horrible... being feminine. As for "bitch" depends. You call me a bitch, and I know it's in fun. Sometimes bitch is used instead of "clever, strongwilled". Sometimes though it's used nasty... again... it's a gendered term. I call you a bitch and it means that you are... um... someon'es bitch. and you are DA's bitch. so it's all good.

Submitted by MikeTheKnife on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:20

breastfeeding blech

Submitted by DSmooth on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:21

J-Cat, I usually skip longer blog posts due to my complete lack of attention span, but I always read yours. The points you make are definitely things that need a change. I'm not sure exactly how to go about making that change, as it's a paradigm shift, but I'm here to help and do what I can... D

Submitted by budman24 on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:25

smooth you are a bitch

Submitted by NorthernPlato on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:30

Awesome post J-Cat; these discussions are always good to have. Sexism will exist for as long as sex remains a taboo subject. If you look at most western curses, they are biologically-based or sexually oriented. Shows you how much respect we give to sex, doesn't it? Also, women will continue to be discriminated against, even if all the men on the planet wised-up and treated women with respect and equality. How? Other women. How many women have ever felt pressured to get married, be a "good wife/mother", have children, and then raise their kids? Most of that pressure comes from the other women in their lives. The other big obstacles I think are connected to continued sexism are related to abortion rights and same-sex marriage. The issues, I believe, share the same root cause in our culture, and as long as there exists a bias against those, women will suffer as a by-product. As long as women are treated as incubators and the "correct other-half" marriage, and as long as sex remains some evil taboo, women will be treated as objects. Think back to the SuperBowl game of "Nipple-gate". A breast on TV created more controversy from people screaming about "family values" than news organizations like CNN showing dead bodies in Haiti. Really? A nipple is more damaging to our children? ./sigh. I think the "sex-as-an-evil-taboo" is the more pressing issue towards gender inequality. Religion is the vehicle by which it is perpetuated, but I think that's more due to the type of person who gravitates towards the extreme views than any issues with faith itself. As always, people are the problem. Damn people. :wink: But good on you, J-Cat, for being brave enough to start the discussion. (obligatory apology to anyone I may offend with my views)

Submitted by TheDastard on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:30

Smooth is J-Cat's bitch. And J-Cat just did this for the hits. Cuz' she's a girl. And they're like that. :)

Submitted by Bawbuster on Sun, 04/11/2010 - 13:36

Great blog! Guys that spew all that bullshit towards women while online, are nothing but cowards who if met you in person would be too scared to say "Hi". But behind the curtain of anonymity they become....savages. We have several women that play in our group and when I have to hear the crap guys are saying to them it infuriates me and I would like to reach through the mic and strangle them. Which is one of the reasons I try to mute anyone who starts spewing off at the mouth. Anyway great blog, way to speak your mind!

Submitted by Azuredreams on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:38

First off, the gaming industry much like sports are tailored toward men because they encompass the largest demographic in their customer base. There's nothing diabolical or sexist about it. Complaining that the gaming industry caters to men over women is like me complaining that Fredricks of Hollywood doesn't carry more choices for men's wear. Gender barriers, just like race barriers are all in your mind. Ignorance is everywhere, and it becomes more pronounced each time someone defines themselves by race,sex,religion etc. The more you focus on these things, the more "transgressions" you're going to percieve. As for the not drinking from open containers at a site lan, that's just insulting and laughable. No one at 2o2p would try and slip you or anyone else a "Mickey" Jcat. To me that equates to wearing a helmet to sleep on the top bunk. I could go on responding to your examples, but it would only end in a circular argument.

Submitted by Gatsu on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:39

my wife was sexually assaulted in her previous relationship, and she does not have a problem with the term rape being associated with an ass-beating in video games, or using the term in general. She even occasionally walks by me, slaps me on the ass and gives me this evil stare then says "You gonna get RAPED!" No I don't think rape is funny, and neither does she. But the usage of the word has expanded. Is it a good thing? Not really. But there's not much to be done about it really. As for women being treated equally in gaming. I'm for it obviously. But like Dastard said, be prepared to be treated just like one of the guys. I see the messages my wife gets on her account. I hear the voice messages. And you know what? It bothers me...but it bothers me more than it does her. She just laughs, blocks the assholes, reports them, then goes back to having fun without missing a beat. Do I think women should be treated with respect? Yes. But respect is also earned, not given automatically because of whats between your legs. And I mean that for both sexes.

Submitted by Automan21k on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 14:47

I just rarely think before I speak (or type) but as a bit of a confession, I often view select classes of people as objects, but that class includes both men and women, and is only those who consider THEMSELVES to be objects. no respect for yourself = no respect from me. I'm someone who spent a majority of his professional career working in industries (or offices) dominated by women, I have been passed over for promotions with the excuse that they "just don't think I can do the job as well as a woman could" and even "until you give birth to a child, you can't comprehend devotion to a job" I have to admit, I was confused by that one. I have been on the receiving end of sexism (even getting my ass slapped) so I have been in that world where I was always the outsider due to conditions I couldn't change.....yeah, it royally sucks.

Submitted by OLDMAV693 on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 15:00

Wait it was that DAMN COULOW that started this LOL

Submitted by nae on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 15:41

ok heres my 2 cents.. I have enjoyed reading your blogs... I respect your opinion but I think a whole lot of thought went into this.. and Im not quite sure it was necessary As a GAMER... just that a gamer. not female or male.(((in the game)) lol.... I take the good with the bad... and Jcat im not sure you've spent a whole lot of time with me in game but im vulgar.. and loud and quite obnoxious at times... not cause im male or female but because I just got my face shot off in cod... :) .I RARELY get insults regarding my gender but rather my ability or lack there of.. to be honest... my guys...yes MY guys I game with become MINE... is that sexist ? I think so But hell if i care their mine!!! they never worry to be politically correct around me.. they never think twice about making a snide comment about their wife or girlfriend.... I would NEVER want that to change because they are walking on egg shells because im a woman... If some women think its rather demeaning to hear some comments I understand and to leave a room is an option... but for the most part my experience with 2old2play has been AWESOME and I guess Im ODD and I don't see sexism... I see either assholes and less of an asshole :) your right there are alot of threads relating to men.. guess what.. im pretty sure they are the majority on this site... hehehe Im sorry If this isnt the response you would have liked to see from a woman however it is excatly how I feel. I say fuk it.. enjoy what you like.. take what you will demand repect from the people around you..... and worry less about the people who DO NOT.

Submitted by wamam87 on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 17:59

AWESOME WRITE UP J-CAT! as for anyone who thinks she's off base at all, you're a fucking retard. have you been on XBL before? of course you have, but your just not paying attention to it because it isn't you. when someone says something to piss you off, it's not just trivial trash talk by a nobody anymore. it's a different story when it affects you. i boot people from my parties who are sexist or racist. it's flat out wrong and has no value in this world. (gaming or real life) go get 'em girl. oh, and azure...if you think there aren't sickies everywhere in this world, you're a moron.

Submitted by JPNor on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 20:09

I listened to Community Pulse and then read this and it's interesting to see and hear your point of view, both as a woman and as a feminist. The only point I'd argue (and I read through the whole thing, you made a LOT of valid points) is regarding blog hits. Without naming anybody, there is a girl here who writes blogs about dating. There was another girl here who wrote blogs about dating a year ago. The girl a year ago garnered MASSIVE hits to her blog, especially in comparison to the current blog. The only difference? The girl a year ago had a picture of her face as her blog avatar. I am not discrediting any women's ability to write interesting blogs; in all honesty I may be defending your point as it relates to the bigger picture.

Submitted by twistedcaboose on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 21:14

Gotta go with Dastard, Gatsu and Nae on this one. I could go on about this for a long time, and probably have in the past. Bottom line, if you can't stand the heat stay away from the xbox, computer or whatever. Nobody, male or female can expect everyone to change to make them more comfortable.

Submitted by twistedcaboose on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 22:45

Oh and last time I checked ALL of 2o2p was for both men and women, just sayin.

Submitted by SUICIDESQUIRREL on Wed, 03/31/2010 - 01:02

I'm going to go sit in the corner.