Gaza Shenanigans

Kwazy

Shared on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 12:30

I'm done with them. Last week the Israeli army intentionally shelled a UN hospital in Gaza City killing scores of civilians and aid workers. This morning Israeli Prime Minister Olmert confirmed that yesterday's/today's attack on a UN compound housing relief supplies was both intentional and premeditated.

The United States provides a lion's share of both monetary funds and troop support to United Nations relief efforts. Any intentional attack on UN forces in such a scenario should be construed as an act of war against the United States. So we're going to launch and air strike on Tel Aviv and roll in the tanks, right? Wrong.

For too long America has blindly supported Israel and their antagonistic policies towards their neighbors. The current administration has taken this myopic idiocy to completely new levels. Bush doesn't even have the compassion or common sense to condemn Israeli air strikes on known civilian targets!

Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But the level of retaliation for rocket attacks from the hills of Gaza must be commensurate with the response. And the present response accomplishes nothing besides an invitation for future and elevated insurgent attacks. Blowing up hospitals because a few fringe doofuses with a Soviet-era launcher fire a shot blindly across the desert is akin to nailing the doors to you're neighbor's home shut then setting it on fire because his kid egged your house.

But we as a country won't even encourage a cease fire. Instead we'll continue to supply Israel American-tax payer-subsidized weapons with which to "defend" itself. Sad and pathetic.

Let's break it all down into cartoon format. The entire situation can be illustrated by Tom and Jerry. Tom the cat is the Palestinianian authority. Jerry the mouse is the Israeli government. The cat fucks with the mouse; the mouse fucks with the cat. Eventually things escalate, and the mouse whacks the cat over the head with a frying pan. The mouse then runs and hides in the big, dumb bull dog America...er, I mean Spike's dog house. The dog growls and chases the cat off with no regard to any role the mouse played in the melee. The mouse laughs at his willing stooge.

Hey cabbages, contrary to what the nincompoop from Texas would have you believe, the terrorists don't hate us because they hate freedom. That's bullshit propaganda for flag-waivers and bible-beaters. They hate us over shit like this.

If we want to be a respected power in the world, we should fight terrorism in all of its guises; Muslim, Jew, or other.

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Comments

Submitted by IamDank on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 13:26

i hate you

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 14:30

@dank...thank you for your offline comments. The perspective is appreciated.

Submitted by IamDank on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 16:23

Im glad we got to talk. :)

Submitted by NorthernPlato on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 16:54

I've loved reading this entire exchange. I've had to refrain from posting anything when I first started following the events, because I was seething with rage. I was against Israel invading Lebanon a few years ago, arguing that the response was disproportionate with the attack that set off the conflict. And in regards to the Hamas, I'd say the world community failed the Palestinian people when we refused to recognize their otherwise democratically elected representatives. As was already mentioned, the Fatah party started from the PLO (arguably a 'terrorist' organization), it was recognized. Same in Ireland with the IRA and the political party that sprang from it. While Hamas may state it wants the destruction of Israel, it doesn't actually have the means to seek that destruction. It's a faulty ideological desire. Israel, though not stating that it wants to destroy the Muslim countries surrounding it, has the ability and recently has been exercising that ability. It's irresponsible assuming Israel seeks a lasting peace. By far, the attack on a UN compound was completely unforgivable, and irks me the most. As in, my first reaction and thought was 'fuck it, nuke'em, gas'em, just kill'em all', which is unfortunate. As much as it bothers me as a Canadian to say this, I think that the Bush administration's focus on fighting terrorists that happen to be Muslim, and keeping its focus narrowly on Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan, had emboldened Israel to claim 'fighting the war on terror' and go much further in it's military campaigns than it would have had the US's attention not been so narrowly focused elsewhere. I say it bothers me to say that as a Canadian, because of how much we've tied our military identity to being UN peacekeepers (as in-effective as the UN has been in many conflicts) and yet on the world stage, our disapproval over a conflict isn't even a blip on foreign countries' decision making paradigm. As I finish typing this, I believe I owe you an apology, Kwazy, for ranting on your soapbox. Sorry.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 12:59

I know I encourages this, but did you have to pick a subject that requires 50 years and 2000 pages to respond? :) Assuming Olmert's statement remains true (as opposed to the two contradictions given earlier in the article), you make a lot of good points. However I do have trouble with Israel = Terrorist. Hamas = Terrorist I agree with but I do not think Israel is on the same level (but then I don't view what the US did in Iraq as a bad thing either, so consider the source). But no question, you fuck with an Israeli he/she will hurt you. The 'Israel is our friend" myth is just that, a myth. Israel will do what Israel thinks it needs to do. Paranoid? Maybe. Realistic? Possibly. The U.N. is not exactly Israels friend. But Israel is not our friend either. They will take from us what they think they need. Period. Nice blog.

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 13:08

Dastard, Thank you...er, your welcome. I forget :) I don't feel that necessarily that Israel is a rogue/terrorist state. However, some of their actions certainly follow the playbook. Remember too that the whole present US-administrations Middle East policy revolves around bringing democracy to the region. Hamas was elected to power by a landslide in what observers near universally described as fair and thorough balloting. Their main platform: stop Israeli attacks, illegal occupation, and oppression. The world needs powers which temper their actions with wisdom. I'm for being one of those. What is really fun is the wildly back and forth swing this blog is getting in terms of +'s and -'s. I'm at want for two things: explanations for either and a breakdown of each rather than an aggregate.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 13:19

I gave you a +. Can't speak for others, but unfortunately I don't get a lot of comments to explain the +/-'s I get either. Sigh. I'm not as forgiving as to Hamas. The 'main platform' is to conduct suicide bombings. They do not want to stop Israeli attacks. They want to eliminate Israel. The '+' represents that the blog is a thought out opinion. It is not a plagiarized from something written elsewhere, nor is it just some wacky bullshit. The fact that I don't completely agree has nothing to do with the quality of the blog.

Submitted by M13a77 on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 13:24

Heres why I gave you a "-" When you tell a child over and over and over ad naseum not to do something and they continue to do it, then you have to do something different and sometime a bit more drastic. this is what your describing. Hammas has continued to blow up targets in Isreal for years. With rocket attacks, suicide bombs, hostage taking the list goes on. At what point exactly are the Isrealies supposed to say enough is enough? I think that if somebody hits you with their fist you should hit them with a baseball bat. At least you know they wont hit you again.

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 13:25

That's how I work too for the most part. So what do we do when terrorist regimes are duly elected? By that I mean through a legitimate election versus a puppet one.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 13:30

@M13...personally, if someone hits me with a fist, I respond with nukes. But hey...that me. @Kwazy, good question. It appears that Hamas was really legitimately elected. They have a large Humanitarian wing that does a lot of good (Kind of like Bush with AIDS in Africa...they love him there). But legit. elected doesn't mean we have to sit back and let them shoot rockets at Israel. Too bad this isn't about Darfur. Then the world would just ignore it.

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 13:37

M13, The issue is much more complicated than that. Through occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip (I know, much withdrawal was done with the previous Israeli government) Israel did much to stir the pot. These settlements are outside their borders and in violation of international law. If a bunch of soldiers showed up and kicked you and your family out of your house and gave it to some family from the next neighborhood over, you'd be pissed too. Furthermore, we're not talking about an organized army with established chains of command. We're talking about poor, uneducated teenagers for the most part who, like most of the sheep in the world, believe everything their elders and clergy tell them. An innocent civilian living in the city knows nothing nor has nothing to do with such suicide or rocket attacks. He's just trying to scrape by a living in a god-forsaken hell-hole. Oops, I mean promised land. When the Israeli air force uses white phosphorus shells to complete incinerate his family in their apartment building while he's at work, to which side of the political spectrum do you think he'll swing. A sincere thanks though for taking the time to express your counterpoint.

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 13:44

@Dastard, Do they really love Bush in Africa? How is that abstinence-only AIDS prevention thing working out anyway. Has all the humping stopped? :D And regarding Darfur, it's a simple formula I would have thought you'd figured out by now. Media Coverage = # of casualties * ( 1 / how dark-skinned the victims are) Example: Casey Anthony's daughter disappears, and it's the biggest public interest story of the year. Natalie Holloway disappears...ditto. Half a million black kids enslaved into militias...meh.

Submitted by Big0ne on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:02

I agree with the fist/baseball bat analogy honestly. I wonder though, if Israel is choosing this moment to hit back hard knowing that the next guy taking office here won't be quite as benevolent to them if they were to do so a month from now. So, secondarily, do you think we should send troops to Darfur?

Submitted by Big0ne on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:05

Oh, one more thing. I'll own up to a -1. If it weren't for the name calling, I would've given a +1 even though I don't agree 100% with your position. I just think our semi-uninformed positions can be given without all the gall. And yes, that goes for the conservative blogs too.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:11

@Kwazy. Actually, Bush is really quite highly regarded in Africa. I don't know why, but AIDS is something that got his attention. And I think 1/3 of the funds had to be spent on abstinence, which is stupid, but that is way better than 100%. Besides, it was pretty effective when I told my 14 year old that as soon as a girl touches his pee-pee her diseases will cause it to turn purple and fall off. There is some value in sex education :) As to Darfur, you are part right. But the role of China and India prevent action on the part of the US. We NEED something from both China and India...so we are fucked. No, actually Darfur is fucked.

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:12

I agree with the ball/bat analogy on a personal level, but I don't feel it scales well to unorganized groups. US versus North Korea? Certainly. Israel versus Egypt? Yes. Israel versus 'Palestine?" Not so much. Darfur is a real tough one. To be honest, it's fallen my radar as even the international press isn't covering it nearly as heavily. Regardless of your opinion of the present Iraq and Afghanistan theaters of operation, it can be agreed upon that we're a bit tight on discretionary personnel at the moment. I think the key minimizing the damage in such scenarios is addressing them early. I'm sure you've heard Clinton's remarks about Rawanda in retrospect.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:13

@Big...so I need to stop calling people 'passive aggressive pussy assholes' and drop some of the 4 letter words? No way! I have my journalistic integrity to consider :)

Submitted by M13a77 on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:15

I am aware of how complicated the situation is. I am also not saying that Palestinians do not have a reason to be pissed. What I am saying is that there are more legitimate ways to handle things then blowing up a bus taking people to work. Is Israel without fault? No. But lets look at this, Israel has repeatedly called cease fires (and honored them), they have consistently given in to pressure from the world to back down on their demands, they have bent over backwards to a “government” that has publicly called for their destruction. Now lets look at it from Hamas’ side. Yes, they were elected fairly, but does that mean they are without fault? No. Hitler was elected fairly and look at his track record. Anyway lets continue. Hamas (The political party) is attached to the militant wing of Hamas. The militant wing is funded by Iran and Syria (of which both countries are KNOWN to have terrorist ties). Hamas is known for rocket attacks on civilian targets. They were started as a suicide squad with the destruction of Israel in their charter. As for them being “…poor, uneducated teenagers for the most part who, like most of the sheep in the world, believe everything their elders and clergy tell them.” Do you really believe that absolves them from guilt? Civilians getting killed in war, although tragic, is a reality. Especially when one country uses the civilian sectors and dwellings as a place of operation. I know this is true because I have seen it with my own eyes. I saw how the “benevolent” Saddam Hussein placed anti aircraft guns in schoolyards and painted them bright colors to make them look like jungle gyms in the hope that we would bomb them and give him a forum to show the world how evil America is. As Dastard stated Israel is not our friend, they are an ally and they will do whatever they need to do to secure their borders. I for one stand with Israel on this matter.

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:25

@M13, Much of what you said is accurate with regards to Hamas and its political affiliations. But do you really believe they're hell-bent on Israel's destruction? Not me. Were that true, you have much more of an offensive than a few random hand-held rocket attacks. These are the actions of individuals, not societies. Should Hamas do more to stop them? Damn straight. But Hamas is barely holding the country together as it is...but they're achieving some level of success which is much more than Fatah was able to do over the last few years of their rein (and remember, the left-leaning Fatah sprung from the PLO). And I question for which I'd like to hear your answer. If Israel is our ally, what do we as a country get from the relationship? Give me some argument as to why it should be construed as symbiotic rather than parasitic.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:30

Yes, Hamas is hell bent on destroying Israel. From the Hamas Charter... "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:32

@Kwazy...I don't agree with the ally term. Yes, we think Israel is an ally. I don't think Israel reciprocates. But what we get from it is votes. Don't underestimate the influence of Jewish voters.

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:45

@Dastard...Way to go with the Hamas charter link, dickface! Now we're both on a government watch list :D Again, the charter citations in my mind are a large part propaganda. Were they truly emboldened to the leadership you'd see attacks on a much greater scale. Are you suggesting American Semites will vote for whichever candidate has the strongest protectionist views towards Israel? Perish the thought!

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 14:52

You were already on a watch list. Deal with it. So is the 'Bill of Rights' just a large part propaganda? Now you sound like Obama with his anti-NAFTA (never mind Canada...just election propaganda) crap. Oh Snap! :) Hamas publishes it. Their actions fit it. And there is no reason to blow up a bus with a bunch of poor stiffs trying to get to their morning bagel. Just because Hamas is limited to third world weapons while Israel got the good shit doesn't excuse them.

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 15:08

Hold on there, sport. I'm not letting anyone off the hook. I'm saying that geometric retaliation is probably a poor apparatus through which to ensure lasting peace. Somebody's got to be the adult in the relationship. Israel is better equipped to be such. If both parties continue to act like spoiled children one of two (or both) things should be done. #1 Take away their toys. and/or #2 Tan both their respective asses.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 15:17

God I love arguing with you. I vote for #2 because Hamas doesn't have any toys I want, bur Israel will kick my ass if I try to take their toys. I think we are fucked. :)

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 15:19

The pleasure is all mine :D Option 1.5 could be to stop supplying them with new toys.

Submitted by ekattan on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 15:37

By condemning these attacks the jewish people believe we are siding with Hamas but thats further from the truth. Hamas is a terrorist organization that shouldn't be allowed to lead Palestine. But at what cost will Israel sacrifice in order to accomplish this? Do we not learn anything from history? The jewish people have been victims of the most horrible genocide in history and now they are carrying out one. People argue that you can't compare millions against thousands. Let me explain the definition of Genocide according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary; : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. These attacks have been deliberate. The UN clearly stated that the Israeli army had every single GPS coordinate for every single one of their schools and safe havens for children and women. They were in constant communication with Israeli officials about how mortar fire and shrap metal were getting to close to their locations. This was deliberate. The bombing of the three schools was also deliberate. The Israeli army showed footage of how a Hamas fighter fired rockets beisde a school citing that it was this the provoked the attacks, but the media found out that the images were years old. More than 300 children have lost their lives in this war. Innocent children. Horrendous stories are told by Red Cross Volunteers how they saw children crying over the bodies of their parents inside building for days and the Israeli military would not allow them to get them out or provide food or water. The prime minister of Israel only had to make one phone call to George Bush so the US could veto the UN resolution to a cease fire. The Israeli army wants blood, they have become what they despised the most. Gaza is the Warsaw Ghetto of our time. I just want peace. I understand that Hamas will never stop their war against the Israeli state. This war may have started as a war against Hamas. but it turned into the genocide of the Palestinian people. Please don't support this war. Just because you oppose it, doesn't mean you are siding with a terrorist group. Please open your eyes and see how many innocent lives are being taken for no reason. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsCJWRvJOG8

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 15:39

The reality is that Israel is too paranoid (probably justifiably so) and that Hamas is too fanatical. I think a possible flaw in your assumptions is that Hamas can be reasoned with and that there is a 'solution' that both sides can live with. Israel has tried this. Maybe a better analogy...take my ex-wife. Please! But seriously, there is no solution to that problem either, and in that case one party might actually be reasonable.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 16:07

ek...the US didn't block it. They 'abstained' from the vote. The resolution passed. Israel ignored. Typical toothless UN crap. Of course, given the ongoing anti-Israel stance of the UN, I'm not sure I blame them. So tell me...when Hamas is suicide bombing...where is the criticism from the UN?

Submitted by Kwazy on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 16:21

Come on! The US abstention was nothing than a *wink* to the Israelis. "Go ahead...we've got your back." eKat...thank you for well-presented facts. I'm flabbergasted and delighted by how civil all comments have been.

Submitted by Kwazy on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 14:09

The soapbox is big enough for several people, however the eggs and tomatoes thrown sometimes leave welts.

Submitted by TheDastard on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 17:24

%$!%$@ you you pro-Arab %^*@($#% Feel better now? ;) I didn't mean to imply the US action was appropriate. I just meant to correct that there has not been a veto. The resolution stands, for what it is worth, which from the UN is 'nothing'.