If ihadn't been using my Mechromancer leveling, getting $ and E, it woulda been a total waste of time :) I promptly spent all my E at Crazy Earls once i got to Sanctuary. I need more E now plus side is i have a maxed out backpack already!
Also not only did 4 people not seem to help, we all had the +5% orbs on so we should have had +20% on top of the 4 person coop rare drop boost and still got shit. This games drop rates are clearly broken. The only thing farming bosses for is leveling extra characters :lol:
Also not only did 4 people not seem to help, we all had the +5% orbs on so we should have had +20% on top of the 4 person coop rare drop boost and still got shit. This games drop rates are clearly broken. The only thing farming bosses for is leveling extra characters :lol:
This is a common misconception in most MMOs and RPGs. Percentages are not additive, they are multiplicative. So you're not getting 5+5+5+5 = 20.
Instead you're getting (((.5 x .5) x .5 ) x .5) = %6.25
This is because to allow %20 flat boost would ruin the game for single play or evey 4 player Co-OP. Replay value would be non-exsistant with that kind of drop rate.
s a common misconception in most MMOs and RPGs. Percentages are not additive, they are multiplicative. So you're not getting 5+5+5+5 = 20.
Instead you're getting (((.5 x .5) x .5 ) x .5) = %6.25
Your maths don't quite work. First, 5% is 0.05 - not 0.5. Second .5 x .5 x .5 x .5 = 0.065 which appears to be your 6.25%. Now, using the right numbers 0.05 x 0.05 x 0.05 x 0.05 = 0.00000625.
I think what you meant was
((((BaseValue x 1.05) x 1.05) x 1.05) x 1.05) = ???
This actually becomes more than 20% in this case. Let's say base value is 100.
s a common misconception in most MMOs and RPGs. Percentages are not additive, they are multiplicative. So you're not getting 5+5+5+5 = 20.
Instead you're getting (((.5 x .5) x .5 ) x .5) = %6.25
Your maths don't quite work. First, 5% is 0.05 - not 0.5. Second .5 x .5 x .5 x .5 = 0.065 which appears to be your 6.25%. Now, using the right numbers 0.05 x 0.05 x 0.05 x 0.05 = 0.00000625.
I think what you meant was
((((BaseValue x 1.05) x 1.05) x 1.05) x 1.05) = ???
This actually becomes more than 20% in this case. Let's say base value is 100.
100 x 1.05 = 105
105 x 1.05 = 110.25 (already more than 10%)
110.25 x 1.05 = 115.7625
115.7625 x 1.05 = 121.550625
Woops on the .05 however I still should be known that percentages are not additive.
Woops on the .05 however we're still not sure on what the base line is (unless 100 is stated somewhere else?). Has that ever been confirmed?
Doesn't matter what the baseline is. Multiplication actually gives you a higher percentage than additive. i only used 100 as an easy example to show how multiplying and adding fractions work.
So I researched this. I found an RPG maker for software devs. There can be a mix of addition and multiplication depending on class and sub-class.
Woops on the .05 however we're still not sure on what the base line is (unless 100 is stated somewhere else?). Has that ever been confirmed?
Doesn't matter what the baseline is. Multiplication actually gives you a higher percentage than additive. i only used 100 as an easy example to show how multiplying and adding fractions work.
So I researched this. I found an RPG maker for software devs. There can be a mix of addition and multiplication depending on class and sub-class.
Are you saying BL2 has said this or just a random RPG dev? Generally it is used as an easy form of diminiting returns. An example was recently added to League of Legends with their armor reduction.
IE (*using 100 as baseline)
You have a talent with %50 armor reduction and find a weapon with %50 additional armor pen on it.
First you get the effect of the first item, reducing their armor to 50%. THEN you get the second item, which reduces WHAT IS LEFT by 50%, leaving them with 25% remaining, and you ignore 75% of the armor. If you got a third 50% item, it would reduce the remaining 25% in half again, leaving them with 12.5% of their total armor
Obviously this is used to prevent massive scaling issues in the future.
I guess we would first have to know if magic find was for sure additive or not. Either way the math still seems a bit off. I'm sadly math stupid, but the compounding number does seem a bit high. Additive in this cause also doesn't seem to be smart for BL because inflating the number this high really hurts single players.
Woops on the .05 however we're still not sure on what the base line is (unless 100 is stated somewhere else?). Has that ever been confirmed?
Doesn't matter what the baseline is. Multiplication actually gives you a higher percentage than additive. i only used 100 as an easy example to show how multiplying and adding fractions work.
So I researched this. I found an RPG maker for software devs. There can be a mix of addition and multiplication depending on class and sub-class.
Are you saying BL2 has said this or just a random RPG dev? Generally it is used as an easy form of diminiting returns. An example was recently added to League of Legends with their armor reduction.
IE (*using 100 as baseline)
You have a talent with %50 armor reduction and find a weapon with %50 additional armor pen on it.
First you get the effect of the first item, reducing their armor to 50%. THEN you get the second item, which reduces WHAT IS LEFT by 50%, leaving them with 25% remaining, and you ignore 75% of the armor. If you got a third 50% item, it would reduce the remaining 25% in half again, leaving them with 12.5% of their total armor
Obviously this is used to prevent massive scaling issues in the future.
I guess we would first have to know if magic find was for sure additive or not. Either way the math still seems a bit off. I'm sadly math stupid, but the compounding number does seem a bit high. Additive in this cause also doesn't seem to be smart for BL because inflating the number this high really hurts single players.
I wonder if they are going to maybe do a small Update when they nerf the Bee. Possibly might want to wait to fix their drop rates until after they fix the OP Farming tools
I've killed the final story boss 4 times, all with the same character, all in the 1st playthrough game each time... All players were between 29 and lev 33. My character, host, was level 31-33 on each of these runs. I should also note that we all had on the +rare drop artifacts...
I wrote down what I seen from rarity drops to see if I could detect a pattern or trend with drops... someone could have picked something up without me noticing, so this is anecdotal evidence at best....
1st time was with 2 others (3 total players, I was 31) = 1 Pink, 2 purples, 2 blues (first time boss(es) were encountered, for what that's woth...)
2nd time was with 1 other player in game (2 players total, I was 32) = 1 purple, 2 blues
3rd time was solo, (I was 32) = 1 blue
4th time was with 3 others (4 total, I was 33 and all but one player was in 30s) = 1 orange, 3 purples, 1 blue
- Note, the orange in the last game was dropped so far in the lava, that nobody could get to it before dieing when running to it. You could scope and see it was an item and definitely not money, but could not actually get to it to pick it up before dieing.
+ + +
I'll also note that the 'developer chest' that is in the lava under the bridge has not been much of a developer chest from BL 1 standards for me personally.
I've only seen greens come out of it. That said, I've been shown some items others have gotten out of it and they claim it gives blues and purples more often... I even seen a pink that was supposed to have come out of it.... but I just have not seen it.
+ + +
I'm not at the boss again on the second playthrough, but looking forward to doing the test again.
I've done the warrior over 100 times now with no orange drops. FML
Also I read the vault hunters relic only affects blue drop increase rate and has no effect on rates.
Basically I am at like 500 total different boss runs with 4 legendaries to show for it. This game hates me
I ran warrior solo 4 times and got a gold drop today. Thought you would want to know that
Also, If "Gold drops" are percentage based, then wouldn't Terramorphous dropping a gold mess with those percetages? He is automatically dropping everytime a gold. So would his chances of dropping a second gold, or others dropping gold, drop dramatically if you replayed him multiple times?
Edited:
Second question. Are those percetages saved as you start and quit the game? or are they dependant upon time played in each session, number of times a Boss is killoed or chest opened from start to finish of each session?
It was an RPG maker engine for softrware devs, not BL2. My point is RPGs can use both add and multiply depending on the situation. that's what the engine does.
My other point, if it is multiply you get more for an adding effect. For example, if you have 100 health. You have an item that gives you +50% health. Another item that gives you +50% health. Adding will give you a total of 200 health, multiplying will give you a total of 225.
Now, for reducing effects I could see that only being multiplcation as a -50% health and -50% health would leave you dead if you added.
I think that is why most RPGs actually use a point system, not a percent system. For example, DCUO's healer class gets a +1% regen for every 4 skill points. In DCUo that means +1% off base regen. So lets say your base regen is +100 health per tick. If you put 4 points into regeneration it will now be BP + BP*(0.01) = 100 + (100*0.1)=101. For 8sp you will have 100 + (100*0.2)=102. So many people in DCUO think it is actually 100 * 1.01 * 1.01 which would get out of hand really quick (especialy since my healer is 1900+regen). So the actual formula is BP + (BP*(100/(SP/4)). 4 is the 4 points per percent. This can be simplified to BP+(BP*100*4/SP) (high school algebra, order of operations will calculate it correctly).
Anyways, that's off track. My point is we are talking about percentage based increases and decreases. it might be a mix. It oculd be add for increasing effects and multiply for decreasing effects. Then you would need to know which gets calculated first which will probably depend where the effect change is coming from.
I see what you're saying, i guess it's kind of like coupons, if you have a manufacturer coupon for 25% off and a store copuon for 25% off, it's not 50% off. It's 25% off and then 25% of fof that. So for a $100 item instead of paying $50 you'd pay 56.25 (100-25%=$75, 75-25%=56.5).
Anyway, regardless of the math, the drop rate over time spent is too low. That's the bottom line. Another Roll Playing Looter that falls flat on it's ass late game.
On a positive note I farmed Mick Zaford another 15-20 times tonight and he finally dropped a Maggie. I nearly shit my pants. It is only a level 49 but it is beast and it has renewed my faith. Drops can happen!
I've killed The Warrior with Bunny twice and both times I got an orange shotgun. You just have to play with the right people. I'll play solo and get nothing, but then I join a friend's game and my first roll on the slots is the triple vault symbols then we go fight that big thresher in the water, the one you lure out with Hammerlocks arm and he drops his orange weapon. I don't think for any of those anyone had the 5% relic on.
I hardly think the drop rates are terrible at all in BL...
On one game, it took me 4 months at 7 raids per week, to farm endgame quality armor with a dedicated set. The armor was not craftable but it was a 20% drop on a certian floor boss. Ended up quiting the game from frustration.
I was fighting warrior last night with an idle mechro to turbo level. Anyway I got one orange an electric conf call shotty in 90mins of farming no 5% orbs equipped.
Farmed BNK3R for 4-5 hours the last 2 days. Got the Bitch SMG and the Sham shield. All my legendary drops have happened when I was playing alone except for one. I don't think the drop rate improves for legendary items with more players. Maybe for purple and blue gear.
Farmed BNK3R for 4-5 hours the last 2 days. Got the Bitch SMG and the Sham shield. All my legendary drops have happened when I was playing alone except for one. I don't think the drop rate improves for legendary items with more players. Maybe for purple and blue gear.
This has been my experience in general play as well. I seem to find the best loot when I'm rolling solo.
If ihadn't been using my Mechromancer leveling, getting $ and E, it woulda been a total waste of time :) I promptly spent all my E at Crazy Earls once i got to Sanctuary. I need more E now plus side is i have a maxed out backpack already!
Also not only did 4 people not seem to help, we all had the +5% orbs on so we should have had +20% on top of the 4 person coop rare drop boost and still got shit. This games drop rates are clearly broken. The only thing farming bosses for is leveling extra characters :lol:
This is a common misconception in most MMOs and RPGs. Percentages are not additive, they are multiplicative. So you're not getting 5+5+5+5 = 20.
Instead you're getting (((.5 x .5) x .5 ) x .5) = %6.25
This is because to allow %20 flat boost would ruin the game for single play or evey 4 player Co-OP. Replay value would be non-exsistant with that kind of drop rate.
Your maths don't quite work. First, 5% is 0.05 - not 0.5. Second .5 x .5 x .5 x .5 = 0.065 which appears to be your 6.25%. Now, using the right numbers 0.05 x 0.05 x 0.05 x 0.05 = 0.00000625.
I think what you meant was
((((BaseValue x 1.05) x 1.05) x 1.05) x 1.05) = ???
This actually becomes more than 20% in this case. Let's say base value is 100.
100 x 1.05 = 105
105 x 1.05 = 110.25 (already more than 10%)
110.25 x 1.05 = 115.7625
115.7625 x 1.05 = 121.550625
Woops on the .05 however I still should be known that percentages are not additive.
Doesn't matter what the baseline is. Multiplication actually gives you a higher percentage than additive. i only used 100 as an easy example to show how multiplying and adding fractions work.
So I researched this. I found an RPG maker for software devs. There can be a mix of addition and multiplication depending on class and sub-class.
Are you saying BL2 has said this or just a random RPG dev? Generally it is used as an easy form of diminiting returns. An example was recently added to League of Legends with their armor reduction.
IE (*using 100 as baseline)
You have a talent with %50 armor reduction and find a weapon with %50 additional armor pen on it.
First you get the effect of the first item, reducing their armor to 50%.
THEN you get the second item, which reduces WHAT IS LEFT by 50%, leaving them with 25% remaining, and you ignore 75% of the armor.
If you got a third 50% item, it would reduce the remaining 25% in half again, leaving them with 12.5% of their total armor
Obviously this is used to prevent massive scaling issues in the future.
I guess we would first have to know if magic find was for sure additive or not. Either way the math still seems a bit off. I'm sadly math stupid, but the compounding number does seem a bit high. Additive in this cause also doesn't seem to be smart for BL because inflating the number this high really hurts single players.
Well, I have a B.S. in Applied Math and doodi's math was not working. It bothered me :)
So thats why Im no good at most games! My liberal arts based education fails me once again
I wonder if they are going to maybe do a small Update when they nerf the Bee. Possibly might want to wait to fix their drop rates until after they fix the OP Farming tools
I've killed the final story boss 4 times, all with the same character, all in the 1st playthrough game each time... All players were between 29 and lev 33. My character, host, was level 31-33 on each of these runs. I should also note that we all had on the +rare drop artifacts...
I wrote down what I seen from rarity drops to see if I could detect a pattern or trend with drops... someone could have picked something up without me noticing, so this is anecdotal evidence at best....
1st time was with 2 others (3 total players, I was 31) = 1 Pink, 2 purples, 2 blues (first time boss(es) were encountered, for what that's woth...)
2nd time was with 1 other player in game (2 players total, I was 32) = 1 purple, 2 blues
3rd time was solo, (I was 32) = 1 blue
4th time was with 3 others (4 total, I was 33 and all but one player was in 30s) = 1 orange, 3 purples, 1 blue
- Note, the orange in the last game was dropped so far in the lava, that nobody could get to it before dieing when running to it. You could scope and see it was an item and definitely not money, but could not actually get to it to pick it up before dieing.
+ + +
I'll also note that the 'developer chest' that is in the lava under the bridge has not been much of a developer chest from BL 1 standards for me personally.
I've only seen greens come out of it. That said, I've been shown some items others have gotten out of it and they claim it gives blues and purples more often... I even seen a pink that was supposed to have come out of it.... but I just have not seen it.
+ + +
I'm not at the boss again on the second playthrough, but looking forward to doing the test again.
I've done the warrior over 100 times now with no orange drops. FML
Also I read the vault hunters relic only affects blue drop increase rate and has no effect on rates.
Basically I am at like 500 total different boss runs with 4 legendaries to show for it. This game hates me
I ran warrior solo 4 times and got a gold drop today. Thought you would want to know that
Also, If "Gold drops" are percentage based, then wouldn't Terramorphous dropping a gold mess with those percetages? He is automatically dropping everytime a gold. So would his chances of dropping a second gold, or others dropping gold, drop dramatically if you replayed him multiple times?
Edited:
Second question. Are those percetages saved as you start and quit the game? or are they dependant upon time played in each session, number of times a Boss is killoed or chest opened from start to finish of each session?
It was an RPG maker engine for softrware devs, not BL2. My point is RPGs can use both add and multiply depending on the situation. that's what the engine does.
My other point, if it is multiply you get more for an adding effect. For example, if you have 100 health. You have an item that gives you +50% health. Another item that gives you +50% health. Adding will give you a total of 200 health, multiplying will give you a total of 225.
Now, for reducing effects I could see that only being multiplcation as a -50% health and -50% health would leave you dead if you added.
I think that is why most RPGs actually use a point system, not a percent system. For example, DCUO's healer class gets a +1% regen for every 4 skill points. In DCUo that means +1% off base regen. So lets say your base regen is +100 health per tick. If you put 4 points into regeneration it will now be BP + BP*(0.01) = 100 + (100*0.1)=101. For 8sp you will have 100 + (100*0.2)=102. So many people in DCUO think it is actually 100 * 1.01 * 1.01 which would get out of hand really quick (especialy since my healer is 1900+regen). So the actual formula is BP + (BP*(100/(SP/4)). 4 is the 4 points per percent. This can be simplified to BP+(BP*100*4/SP) (high school algebra, order of operations will calculate it correctly).
Anyways, that's off track. My point is we are talking about percentage based increases and decreases. it might be a mix. It oculd be add for increasing effects and multiply for decreasing effects. Then you would need to know which gets calculated first which will probably depend where the effect change is coming from.
I see what you're saying, i guess it's kind of like coupons, if you have a manufacturer coupon for 25% off and a store copuon for 25% off, it's not 50% off. It's 25% off and then 25% of fof that. So for a $100 item instead of paying $50 you'd pay 56.25 (100-25%=$75, 75-25%=56.5).
Anyway, regardless of the math, the drop rate over time spent is too low. That's the bottom line. Another Roll Playing Looter that falls flat on it's ass late game.
What'd you get?
Some shotgun, I think it was called Flakker or something. I also got 4 E tech guns from drops or chests today
1 E Tech sniper 28K Slag damage
LB, is this better?
http://zipmeme.com/uploads/generated/g1339495401172564653.jpg
I hate you fire but the consolation is that the flanker is the worst gun in the history of the universe. So I feel better now
On a positive note I farmed Mick Zaford another 15-20 times tonight and he finally dropped a Maggie. I nearly shit my pants. It is only a level 49 but it is beast and it has renewed my faith. Drops can happen!
I have been seeing E Tech weapons dropping more and more
I've killed The Warrior with Bunny twice and both times I got an orange shotgun. You just have to play with the right people. I'll play solo and get nothing, but then I join a friend's game and my first roll on the slots is the triple vault symbols then we go fight that big thresher in the water, the one you lure out with Hammerlocks arm and he drops his orange weapon. I don't think for any of those anyone had the 5% relic on.
I hardly think the drop rates are terrible at all in BL...
On one game, it took me 4 months at 7 raids per week, to farm endgame quality armor with a dedicated set. The armor was not craftable but it was a 20% drop on a certian floor boss. Ended up quiting the game from frustration.
I was fighting warrior last night with an idle mechro to turbo level. Anyway I got one orange an electric conf call shotty in 90mins of farming no 5% orbs equipped.
Farmed BNK3R for 4-5 hours the last 2 days. Got the Bitch SMG and the Sham shield. All my legendary drops have happened when I was playing alone except for one. I don't think the drop rate improves for legendary items with more players. Maybe for purple and blue gear.
This has been my experience in general play as well. I seem to find the best loot when I'm rolling solo.
Raid bosses in the new DLC can only be fought once a day.... sucks
Once a day?? Wtf that's gay.