What are you talking about Church? TrackAssassin makes the car look good. It's not the car's fault, blame him. Resident Alien and what not. You could give him a stock car and he'd beat us still. Hope to see you racing on the track.......Track. <~~~Look, Boobs! That should get him back, just you wait and see.
With all due respect, I spent a lot of time testing cars to determine which ones were fast. I thought that was the point of the rules and I thought everyone else was doing the same thing. The Dodge was specifically allowed and its PI was discussed. Everyone had a chance to test it and choose not to drive it. I picked the VW because it was only slightly slower and it responded better to tuning changes. Now I get the impression that if I have too much success, the rules will change again.
Have you considered allowing everyone to change cars? If the Dodge and VW are the cars everyone missed, you could let them upgrade. Your car limitations made car-choice the obvious, crucial first step in this competition. I'm a bit mystified that so many picked cars that are 2-3 seconds slow. I had a strong wish to drive a RWD car, but it was obvious to me that I couldn't compete in the available choices.
I must say I'm quite frustrated with this club's attitude toward competition. I thought racing was supposed to be a contest of skill, intelligence, and diligence. When I joined, there were straight-up spec races being run on the weekends. I thought I was working towards them, but when I felt I was ready, those series disappeared.
I moved to this btcc series because it had (I thought) a set of rules that allowed a different kind of competition, but a model that I could understand. I accepted that car-selection and handicap-management would be crucial to this, but now I get the impression that I misinterpreted the intent.
something to bear in mind folks....Car spec adjustments are common in most racing series. It's not about the driver in spite of it feeling that way. The ideas is to maintain parity. No system is ever going to be perfect. The cream still rises to the top most of the time anyway, they just have to work a little harder for it. Look at it as an opportunity. driving with a hindicap realy does force you to hink about what you're doing. Passing becomes more strategic because you can't rely on hp to keep you in frontof your opponent.
Secondly, it's not all about getting to the front either imo. It's about enjoying yourself. The best racing happens in the pack. Believe me, it gets pretty boring when you drive away from the field on the 1st lap.I'd rather be racing than hotlapping personally.
Hope no one takes this post the wrong way. I'm just trying to get folks to look at things from a different perspective.
Up until a few weeks ago there was no handicaps ect in any event but it was killing this place as the same 4 or 5 people was winning all the time and the numbers consistently dropped over a season form around 30 sign ups to the same 9 or 10 people.
I myself got pretty fed up of the same people winning (me included) that I decided to base a series on the real BTCC who implement handicaps (Weight added to cars in real life - Power percentage handicap for us.) and power reductions on cars (By adjusting Turbo Boost)
Pulled the following from the BTCC site:
"The British Touring Car Championship has modified its turbo boost equalisation system for 2013.
A rolling two-meeting average of best lap times was used to adjust the base boost levels for each model this season.
The aim was to keep the field close, but the system was not unanimously popular.
At a recent meeting of the teams and organisers, tweaks were agreed. However, the system will remain based on laptimes.
The most significant change, arguably, is that boost adjustments will now be applied to individual drivers or teams, rather than to each model of car."
Trying to constantly work peoples fastest lap times out as well as everything else I need to do to run an event wont work as I have limited Xbox and gaming time available to me, so I decided to just go on where people finish and adjust where needed.
I don't think people missed the Dodge or VW, they just choose not to use them as they wanted to use a car they like fast or slow and as stated above no matter how fast a car is the regulations are set in place to keep everyone close together. That way people get to run a car they like but still have a chance of actually wining an event.
If people are unhappy with handicaps ect create an event without them. I love to join events where I can just turn up and race without having to do point sheets ect and stuff like this.
... the numbers consistently dropped over a season form around 30 sign ups to the same 9 or 10 people.
That explains a lot. Thank you. It also makes me think that this club may not be the venue for me. Perhaps this is what I've been struggling to understand and the source of my frustration.
As you say, it's impossible to make everyone happy. I'll keep racing here until I find something better. I will try to keep my competitive nature under control. (Though I do plan on forcing you to levy additional handicap to slow me down. I'll try to consider that a win.)
I would create a series, but if there are only 9 or 10 people interested and some of them will be drawn to the events with more sign-ups, I can't see that it's worthwhile. As with most things, others have already reached this conclusion and I am late in figuring it out. If you couldn't make it work, why would I think that I can?
And I do, also, appreciate your efforts, Church and everyone who manages events. I apologize for any offense given.
It has always been the way here that if you do not like the way people run their series you put in the effort and run one the way you want. Up until my interwebs crapped out I did exactly that tailoring the series I ran to appeal to the slower and less experienced. Others ran series how they wanted, some I joined some I didn't. If I joined one that was not to my taste I withdrew and left those who it suited to have their fun.
There have been many attempts to create a series that can bring all members regardless of skill level onto the track with an equalizing mechanism...none have been perfect but each has required a lot of work and effort by the organizer in order that we can turn on our Xbox and have fun and do something a little different from the hoppers. Often there may be a little tinkering in the early stages, just as in real life organizers are always trying to create closer more exiting races.
So if you think you can do better or differently, do it. If you don't like what is offered, offer an alternative.
Race organizers set up series the way they want, you either join and race under those rules or you don't. Simple as.
Don’t sweat it Church. You’re doing a good job trying to run an event where your intent was to induce close racing amongst all participants. That goal is near impossible as is the expectation that you can please everyone.
I have been a member here for nearly two years and when I joined Forza 3 was on the way out as Forza 4 was only a few months away the number of people playing had dropped. Joining here opened my eyes to the great potential this game had to offer, I had only played the single player and occasionally ventured into the public lobbies and we all know what that's like. Meeting everyone here changed my whole attitude to the game, all the guys couldn't do enough to help me improve my driving and racecraft. The sharing of tunes and liverys showed how generous this group is. I quickly improved while having fun in the process.
The only reason that handicapped racing started was to give the slower guys a real chance of running with the quick drivers. It's not a question of ruining the competetive sprit ofvan event just to try and make it closer. I have a great respect for the guys who put a lot of time and effort into running the great events here and it can't be easy. Look at the amount of time church has already put into this event and he only does it because of the love of the game. Listen not every event is going to suit everybody so if you don't like it or are not enjoying it don't run in it. If you can't find an event that suits you set one up yourself, there are plenty of guys here that are more than willing to help me included.
Botom line there are many different ways to race here from organised events, track nights or just open a room and invite people in to have a laugh while driving. This place would not be the same without the guys who put so much into it so the rest of us can just have some fun. In no particular order Cotter, Tourni, Snappy, Church, Kraiger, Gizzie, Oldschool, Parcells, Helios to name but a few and some of the newer guys too like Maxpower thank you for the great tune for the civic. See you all Sunday and remember ha fun y'all.
Whatever you decide Crleo I hope to see you at next month's production lobby cause you and I had some fantastic battles last Thursday...always a pleasure when you go two-wide into a turn and 3-4 turns later (having not seen the other car) the guy is still right next to you! :)
The thing is crieo better is subjective, and that is why folk are activly encouriged to create an event/series to their taste if there is something they want from the club. It is one of the biggest Forza clubs out there and that means there are many folk who may agree with your way of doing things. 204F is run by it's members for it's members, so it relies on folk doing rather than talking. There are people who would help folk who maybe are not sure how to do it, Church always did my sign up sheets, tuners like Pap and others would supply setups, and painters would supply paints.
This club is chock full of talented and generous folk who will bend over backwards to help get things done.
When I first ran series I was of course worried that no-one would turn up, they did and I created some of the most disorganised series ever to grace the hallowed halls of 204F, but folk turned up every week and much fun was had.
That is the joy of this club, you get out what you put in 100 fold.
I still have great memories of your event Knight, those healys some of the most fun racing I've had here.
Thanks mate, that was a gas...if I ever get confident enough in my interwebs I might just think of reviving that one. I love the Healy and it did make for some fun races :-)
@Fitzy Sir, Parcells heard through the grapevine you participated this weekend and you weren’t, shall we say, overly fond of the tune I sent you
What can I say except I warned you that you may not like it. Then last night I was watching some of the room B races and decided to watch you for a bit (nice paint job btw) and all I can say is you were driving it wrong LOL…I was taking almost every turn in a lower gear than you and never did I use the 6th gear. The thing must have been a pig coming out of the turns for you.
I do have a gear ratio for Hockenheim that utilizes 6th gear and I adjusted the ARBs a bit if you want me to send it over but my guess is you wont like this one either.
It's ok Parcells Maxperforma did a tune for me and it suits my driving style a bit more than yours, your tune was quick when I got it right but I found it hard to be consistant. I dropped out of Room A to leave room for you which seemed only right as you are the team leader. I only did minor changes to the paint but kept it's original theme.
I'm one of the slower independent drivers in the btcc, I think the series is great, I don't think even with handicaps that I'm ever going to win but I really enjoyed the races and learnt a lot to. As for changes like has been said changes happen in Motorsport be it weight added or taken away or air intake restrictions. Think your doing a good job church, lookin forward to this weekends race.
sitting here in Emden, Germany (again) in a lonely (missing my boy, wife, dog and ....... yes my xbox) hotel I read those comments about handicaps, banned cars, etc.......... My english is bad, so I use simple words:
This 2o4p/2o4f/2o4e bunch of people is one great mix of supporting, lovely and very strong personalities . The greatest mix I have ever found. Not alone in the net, but in life. Multinational (I remember to call someone an english man, but it was a irish one ..... wow....), worldpeople, who are making not much out of it from where someone comes from (those nasty jokes from the us guys about "good old europe" I will not comment). It doesn't matter which job you own. Here are dog fans and cat haters (Is that the same? .... aah bad engllish). You can be yourself and express yourself. Humor, men talk and (like Knight said): You will earn, what you gave to the community. If you care, someone will notice and appreciate it. If you help, you will be helped. ........
There is one rule to follow:
Race fair, clean and give space!
Winning or loosing does matter. In each race. We are all racers, but @crleo you know what: For the most people here the personal ambition is not winning or be the best of the best (who wants to be an alien?). The personal ambition is to have and create FUN, which means: some dirty jokes, some boops (wtf is that in german?), gay porn (one pink car bumps into another pink car), one or two beer while driving (@parcells: I bought your arguments. you are right in relation to drinking), some funny comments in a forum, some information about vids, music,life and ....... if someone has a real problem (health, job, life,,.....) kind words of inspiration, motivation and hope.
THAT matters.
@church: Don't change yourself, stay strong and make YOUR series! Thanks for investing so much effort and time! The unhappy ones will leave and find their spot somewhere else. That is okay.
And now ....... I will drink a beer without my xbox = without you. Prost!
Edit: (Read Jdans post) = ROFL at some coments there jDan. And yes you are right about the Boobs
Right lets move on now please.
BTCC Stewards Racing Bulletin
Date issued - 14/02/2013
Topic - Hockenheim Circuit, Turn One (Nordkurve)
The BTCC will be visiting the Hockenheim Circuit this weekend for race's 4 - 5 and 6.
As most drivers are aware, running a racing line in to the run off area of Turn One (Nordkurve) will give a car a large speed advantage over cars running a correct racing line through Turn One (Nordkurve) down the straight.
As such, any driver found to be abusing the run off area of Turn One (Nordkurve) will result in a post race Stewards enquiry.
Any driver who gains a place by using the run of area MUST give the position back before Turn 2.
Please study image below outlining the acceptable racing line through Turn One.
Also on the INSIDE of turn one (Where the German flag is) all 4 wheels must NEVER go on the green area at any time.
I'm assuming 2 wheels over the inside rumble strip at apex is ok, but 4 is ano-no. correct? the reason I ask is becasuse I use the inside ruble strips to help my car turn at the apex. This is acheived by putting the inside wheels up on the curb.
What are you talking about Church? TrackAssassin makes the car look good. It's not the car's fault, blame him. Resident Alien and what not. You could give him a stock car and he'd beat us still. Hope to see you racing on the track.......Track..gif "107")
<~~~Look, Boobs! That should get him back, just you wait and see.
With all due respect, I spent a lot of time testing cars to determine which ones were fast. I thought that was the point of the rules and I thought everyone else was doing the same thing. The Dodge was specifically allowed and its PI was discussed. Everyone had a chance to test it and choose not to drive it. I picked the VW because it was only slightly slower and it responded better to tuning changes. Now I get the impression that if I have too much success, the rules will change again.
Have you considered allowing everyone to change cars? If the Dodge and VW are the cars everyone missed, you could let them upgrade. Your car limitations made car-choice the obvious, crucial first step in this competition. I'm a bit mystified that so many picked cars that are 2-3 seconds slow. I had a strong wish to drive a RWD car, but it was obvious to me that I couldn't compete in the available choices.
I must say I'm quite frustrated with this club's attitude toward competition. I thought racing was supposed to be a contest of skill, intelligence, and diligence. When I joined, there were straight-up spec races being run on the weekends. I thought I was working towards them, but when I felt I was ready, those series disappeared.
I moved to this btcc series because it had (I thought) a set of rules that allowed a different kind of competition, but a model that I could understand. I accepted that car-selection and handicap-management would be crucial to this, but now I get the impression that I misinterpreted the intent.
Damn, I forgot to add boobs.
something to bear in mind folks....Car spec adjustments are common in most racing series. It's not about the driver in spite of it feeling that way. The ideas is to maintain parity. No system is ever going to be perfect. The cream still rises to the top most of the time anyway, they just have to work a little harder for it. Look at it as an opportunity. driving with a hindicap realy does force you to hink about what you're doing. Passing becomes more strategic because you can't rely on hp to keep you in frontof your opponent.
Secondly, it's not all about getting to the front either imo. It's about enjoying yourself. The best racing happens in the pack. Believe me, it gets pretty boring when you drive away from the field on the 1st lap.I'd rather be racing than hotlapping personally.
Hope no one takes this post the wrong way. I'm just trying to get folks to look at things from a different perspective..gif "3")
Up until a few weeks ago there was no handicaps ect in any event but it was killing this place as the same 4 or 5 people was winning all the time and the numbers consistently dropped over a season form around 30 sign ups to the same 9 or 10 people.
I myself got pretty fed up of the same people winning (me included) that I decided to base a series on the real BTCC who implement handicaps (Weight added to cars in real life - Power percentage handicap for us.) and power reductions on cars (By adjusting Turbo Boost)
Pulled the following from the BTCC site:
That explains a lot. Thank you. It also makes me think that this club may not be the venue for me. Perhaps this is what I've been struggling to understand and the source of my frustration.
As you say, it's impossible to make everyone happy. I'll keep racing here until I find something better. I will try to keep my competitive nature under control. (Though I do plan on forcing you to levy additional handicap to slow me down. I'll try to consider that a win.)
I would create a series, but if there are only 9 or 10 people interested and some of them will be drawn to the events with more sign-ups, I can't see that it's worthwhile. As with most things, others have already reached this conclusion and I am late in figuring it out. If you couldn't make it work, why would I think that I can?
And I do, also, appreciate your efforts, Church and everyone who manages events. I apologize for any offense given.
Reply deleted.
It has always been the way here that if you do not like the way people run their series you put in the effort and run one the way you want. Up until my interwebs crapped out I did exactly that tailoring the series I ran to appeal to the slower and less experienced. Others ran series how they wanted, some I joined some I didn't. If I joined one that was not to my taste I withdrew and left those who it suited to have their fun.
There have been many attempts to create a series that can bring all members regardless of skill level onto the track with an equalizing mechanism...none have been perfect but each has required a lot of work and effort by the organizer in order that we can turn on our Xbox and have fun and do something a little different from the hoppers. Often there may be a little tinkering in the early stages, just as in real life organizers are always trying to create closer more exiting races.
So if you think you can do better or differently, do it. If you don't like what is offered, offer an alternative.
Race organizers set up series the way they want, you either join and race under those rules or you don't. Simple as.
Don’t sweat it Church. You’re doing a good job trying to run an event where your intent was to induce close racing amongst all participants. That goal is near impossible as is the expectation that you can please everyone.
I have been a member here for nearly two years and when I joined Forza 3 was on the way out as Forza 4 was only a few months away the number of people playing had dropped. Joining here opened my eyes to the great potential this game had to offer, I had only played the single player and occasionally ventured into the public lobbies and we all know what that's like. Meeting everyone here changed my whole attitude to the game, all the guys couldn't do enough to help me improve my driving and racecraft. The sharing of tunes and liverys showed how generous this group is. I quickly improved while having fun in the process.
The only reason that handicapped racing started was to give the slower guys a real chance of running with the quick drivers. It's not a question of ruining the competetive sprit ofvan event just to try and make it closer. I have a great respect for the guys who put a lot of time and effort into running the great events here and it can't be easy. Look at the amount of time church has already put into this event and he only does it because of the love of the game. Listen not every event is going to suit everybody so if you don't like it or are not enjoying it don't run in it. If you can't find an event that suits you set one up yourself, there are plenty of guys here that are more than willing to help me included.
Botom line there are many different ways to race here from organised events, track nights or just open a room and invite people in to have a laugh while driving. This place would not be the same without the guys who put so much into it so the rest of us can just have some fun. In no particular order Cotter, Tourni, Snappy, Church, Kraiger, Gizzie, Oldschool, Parcells, Helios to name but a few and some of the newer guys too like Maxpower thank you for the great tune for the civic. See you all Sunday and remember ha fun y'all.
Whatever you decide Crleo I hope to see you at next month's production lobby cause you and I had some fantastic battles last Thursday...always a pleasure when you go two-wide into a turn and 3-4 turns later (having not seen the other car) the guy is still right next to you! :)
The thing is crieo better is subjective, and that is why folk are activly encouriged to create an event/series to their taste if there is something they want from the club. It is one of the biggest Forza clubs out there and that means there are many folk who may agree with your way of doing things. 204F is run by it's members for it's members, so it relies on folk doing rather than talking. There are people who would help folk who maybe are not sure how to do it, Church always did my sign up sheets, tuners like Pap and others would supply setups, and painters would supply paints.
This club is chock full of talented and generous folk who will bend over backwards to help get things done.
When I first ran series I was of course worried that no-one would turn up, they did and I created some of the most disorganised series ever to grace the hallowed halls of 204F, but folk turned up every week and much fun was had.
That is the joy of this club, you get out what you put in 100 fold.
I still have great memories of your event Knight, those healys some of the most fun racing I've had here.
Thanks mate, that was a gas...if I ever get confident enough in my interwebs I might just think of reviving that one. I love the Healy and it did make for some fun races :-)
@Fitzy Sir, Parcells heard through the grapevine you participated this weekend and you weren’t, shall we say, overly fond of the tune I sent you
What can I say except I warned you that you may not like it. Then last night I was watching some of the room B races and decided to watch you for a bit (nice paint job btw) and all I can say is you were driving it wrong LOL…I was taking almost every turn in a lower gear than you and never did I use the 6th gear. The thing must have been a pig coming out of the turns for you.
I do have a gear ratio for Hockenheim that utilizes 6th gear and I adjusted the ARBs a bit if you want me to send it over but my guess is you wont like this one either.
It's ok Parcells Maxperforma did a tune for me and it suits my driving style a bit more than yours, your tune was quick when I got it right but I found it hard to be consistant. I dropped out of Room A to leave room for you which seemed only right as you are the team leader. I only did minor changes to the paint but kept it's original theme.
I'm one of the slower independent drivers in the btcc, I think the series is great, I don't think even with handicaps that I'm ever going to win but I really enjoyed the races and learnt a lot to. As for changes like has been said changes happen in Motorsport be it weight added or taken away or air intake restrictions. Think your doing a good job church, lookin forward to this weekends race.
Hello,
sitting here in Emden, Germany (again
) in a lonely (missing my boy, wife, dog .gif "67")
and ....... yes my xbox.gif "66")
) hotel I read those comments about handicaps, banned cars, etc.......... My english is bad, so I use simple words:
This 2o4p/2o4f/2o4e bunch of people is one great mix of supporting, lovely and very strong personalities.gif "29")
.gif "52")
. The greatest mix I have ever found. Not alone in the net, but in life. Multinational (I remember to call someone an english man, but it was a irish one ..... wow....
), worldpeople, who are making not much out of it from where someone comes from (those nasty jokes from the us guys about "good old europe" I will not comment
). It doesn't matter which job you own. Here are dog fans and cat haters (Is that the same? .... aah bad engllish
). You can be yourself and express yourself. Humor, men talk and (like Knight said): You will earn, what you gave to the community. If you care, someone will notice and appreciate it. If you help, you will be helped. ........
There is one rule to follow:
Race fair, clean and give space!.gif "1")
Winning or loosing does matter. In each race..gif "40")
We are all racers, but @crleo you know what: For the most people here the personal ambition is not winning or be the best of the best (who wants to be an alien?). The personal ambition is to have and create FUN.gif "9")
, which means: some dirty jokes, some boops (wtf is that in german?.gif "80")
), gay porn (one pink car bumps into another pink car.gif "36")
), one or two beer while driving (@parcells: I bought your arguments. you are right in relation to drinking), some funny comments in a forum, some information about vids, music,life and ....... if someone has a real problem (health, job, life,,.....) kind words of inspiration, motivation and hope.
THAT matters..gif "17")
@church: Don't change yourself, stay strong and make YOUR series! Thanks for investing so much effort and time! The unhappy ones will leave and find their spot somewhere else. That is okay.
And now ....... I will drink a beer without my xbox = without you. Prost!
JDANKERT
PS: Boobs????? http://www.bild.de/video/clip/sportwagen-rennen/scharfe-kurven-20783622....
Edit: (Read Jdans post) = ROFL at some coments there jDan. And yes you are right about the Boobs
Right lets move on now please..gif "138")
BTCC Stewards Racing Bulletin
Date issued - 14/02/2013
Topic - Hockenheim Circuit, Turn One (Nordkurve)
The BTCC will be visiting the Hockenheim Circuit this weekend for race's 4 - 5 and 6.
As most drivers are aware, running a racing line in to the run off area of Turn One (Nordkurve) will give a car a large speed advantage over cars running a correct racing line through Turn One (Nordkurve) down the straight.
As such, any driver found to be abusing the run off area of Turn One (Nordkurve) will result in a post race Stewards enquiry.
Any driver who gains a place by using the run of area MUST give the position back before Turn 2.
Please study image below outlining the acceptable racing line through Turn One.
Also on the INSIDE of turn one (Where the German flag is) all 4 wheels must NEVER go on the green area at any time.
Any questions please post below.
Cheers
BTCC Stewards
I'm assuming 2 wheels over the inside rumble strip at apex is ok, but 4 is ano-no. correct? the reason I ask is becasuse I use the inside ruble strips to help my car turn at the apex. This is acheived by putting the inside wheels up on the curb.
Check bottom of bulletin for update.
Thanks cotter
There is no one better qualified to marshal the outside of turn one than you Church.
I don't know what you are talking about. Lies I tell you LIES!!
What if I need to pee during the race?
That's what Depends are for.
Looking forward to this race, don't think my cars fast enough round here but it's consistent, fingers crossed you lot crash :p
Some of you will have no idea just how rib tickling it is to see Church getting all anal about racing lines.gif "24")
Its worth the admission alone, dont even have to race now.
A Race07 event recently (Snetterton I believe).
"Hey Church, track is over here."
"WTF! It just gave me a stop and go for cutting the track!"
"I can't imagine why.".gif "151")
Great video Jdan!!!
I am looking forward to Hockenhiem this weekend. Should be fun and very difficult with a 15% reduction.