Event generation thread.
#1
Mon, 08/19/2013 - 13:53
Event generation thread.
I'm been hemming and hawing about crap, and I got up and took a walk, and realized, I need to address this not from my perspective, because, hard as it is to believe, it ain't about just me. There are some real road blocks here that maybe can be eased for a lot of people, coordinators AND participants alike.
So, I'm going to post here after I get wrapped up and get home, and put out a couple ideas, based on my observations, and process issues I've seen, and then I'm going to open it wide open, and let people voice their observations, opinions, whatever and see what falls out the other side.
Gimmee an hour or so.
Okay, so if your eyes roll up after 5 lines, this isn't for you, straight up.
So, I work in the quality assurance field, believe it or not. And I'm not one of those that focus on a single aspect, I'm more of a fingers in all the pots kind of guy. But, I deal with engineers on a daily basis. I know, somehow, this is bad karma for past transgressions, just cannot prove it, yet.
Anyway, I constantly deal with engineers about print specifications, material specifications, even process specifications, both for products and manufacturing of said products, which shall remain nameless do to legally binding obligations...nothing as cool as working on the XBOne, or anything though.
And frequently it's a case of an engineer covering the print with copious amounts of specifications that the part, and the supplier of said part, have to adhere to. Now often this is a battle between Engineering and Accounting, one wants it to do this, but the other wants to pay something less.
The point of contention usually is that specification, or specifications are too tight, too many, or wholly unimportant to the form/fit/function of the end product. Anything that is any of these adds COST to the part without benefit to the end customer, and ultimately can hurt profit in the mix.
I was walking away from the computer, thinking about an issue and it struck me that perhaps, and I say perhaps, this is similar to some issues that pop up from time to time when someone wants to set up an event.
It looks to me, and this is MY opinion, that the events are set up for what the Event Coordinator wants to run. And, I can honestly say immediately, well, why wouldn't they? They want to run something they like, and probably something they aren't getting, even hasn't been done yet., makes sense right?
But then I see people saying that one, it's too complicated ( me, I admit it) or the guy wanting to run it can't get enough people ( many times, different people,) or the times not right, etc. Honestly, I could use more suggestions on the problems here/reasons given.
But here's what I see from a process point of view.
Complexity breeds increased problems and more opportunities for people to see something ( could be anything) that may keep them from participating. Simply put, the more complicated or strict the specifications, the increased chance of lesser participation. Kind of like a manufacturing spec too tight, and more scrap incurred/increased cost to produce.
Now, if you have a vision of a race event and you want to reproduce it down to the last detail, and some of you do, and you do it well, you should know that not everyone shares that vision, your pool of participants will be smaller, and the level of complexity will increase the operation of the event/series and perhaps stress.
Now, if you look at the specifications, the requirements and ask yourself, what pieces truly are required for form/fit/function (and these are unique perhaps to each event) and which don't advance the process or don't benefit the end user ( which is the participants/customers) of the product (race series/event). If you reduce the unneeded specifications, the distribution ( pool of drivers as it were) increases.
Now if you take it too far, you get a swap meet and that doesn't work either. You get everyone there and no organization at all. So I guess a balance is needed.
If you're getting too many participants, maybe you need a little tighter spec, too few people, maybe open it up a tad.
MY OPINION:
From the races I've attended here over the last three or more years ( I think), Too many cars is a headache for the promoter/development team. If the tuning is relatively open on top, too many choices is a bad thing, and time can become a problem figuring out what you want to run. AND, sometimes everyone gravitates to one or two cars anyway. (?)
Oddly enough, sometimes a single car and a fixed tune can be a complete blast even though it's the total other end of the spectrum. Seems like some middle ground would be the answer, but this option does work pretty good, usually.
So, it would seem a few cars, coupled with specifications not extreme OR completely non-existent, somewhere in the middle should draw the largest pool of possible victims/racers.
Just know, if you want a early 60''s Gran Prix recreation, on drag tires and sim damage, you've narrowed the pool immediately (probably, who knows?).
I guess the most important aspect of a series is What is the goal, the thing you want it to do, before you even get started. Focus on that, and try to add specifications that help that goal, and not take away from it.
If you want a good series for beginner racers, I'd keep the fast guys off the track, period. But you also need to figure out what cars the beginners can run (probably one car/tune is best) and what other aspects would benefit a beginning driver? Tracks where even if you're behind you can always see most everyone? Slower cars maybe? Low cost cars, could be as well.
The fast guys can probably afford most anything, drive any track and run their own tunes. the new guys, not so much, not yet anyway. If you want the slower guys to have fun, and see a lot of cars on the track, while encouraging them to be up front, put the fast guys in slower cars and let 'em run laps too, even track points if they want, IF you can find fast guys that will do it
Okay, I'm boring me even, and I usually try not to talk all this crap when I leave work, I know it's a yawn.
Biggest thing is simply, try to see other points of view, the more you open up opportunities, the more occur, and if you have a tight/narrow vision of what you want, it's less apt to attract a wide following.
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Now, please, if there's more issues, voice them, from both the point of view of the promoter, and the participants. Keep it civil, keep it based on your point of view, what you've seen, what you want, what you maybe don't want.
But, keep in mind, everyone has their own point of view. Biggest thing I've learned in all my corporate brainwashing, err training, is to try and at least see the opposing point of view. Makes a conversation easier down the road. Hell, many a time it's a miscommunication that starts something.
Nice topic Oldschool.
When I create and event I try to aim for as many drivers as possible. Over the years I have tried a wide range of events (BTCC, GT's, Stock etc etc)
It would be nice to see what people don't like / did not like about events (Just general obs eg Drag Tyres or Sim Damage in R2 cars etc)
I personally don't mind creating events but most times its like shooting in the dark. I know you cannot make everyone happy but I do try and make up some awesome events and do try and make most people happy (Handicap Profiles etc)
So like I said it would be nice to see what people don't like.
Seriously just post even if its like "I don't like drag tires" that way when someone makes an event they know what to miss out and what to include.
Personally I don't like the following:
Handicaps
Drag Tyres
Sim Damage
Single race nights
Interesting. I agree with your post completely, Oldschool. In the end I also take two things into account:
1. It's good to try something new and support event planners even if you may not like an aspect or two of the event. You know, keep an open mind. Ex. I thought the inclusion of "Car Soccer" was the most insulting thing when this game came out. I was actually upset because I saw it as a waste of game resources. I recently played it with some of the guys and its actually quite fun.
2. There are usually any number of single car spec series races to choose from. It is fun and manageable but gets stale as well.
Just my two cents.
There are things I don't like as well, namely;
1. Cautions - breed more cautions
2. Super short races in totally random cars with a shit ton of contact and lots and lots of I'm sorry's.
However, I try to run many events even if I'm not crazy about the car/rules just because I often end up enjoying the experience. Pleasant surprises.
Personally I don't like the following:
Running cars with stock builds/tuning
Fixed gear ratios
Aggressive driving
Single race nights
Can't argue with any of that (of course I could, who are we kidding but I'd be lying to myself) but be damned if I'm gonna bring more process into my gaming enjoyment, I get enough of that cover your ass mentality at work and you know exactly what Parcells means but I digress and am starting to get upset about work, must let it go. For simplicity sake is probably why the only events Parcells ever runs are straight forward stock/tune build one race evenings which I love :)
I do enjoy tuning cars (although not that great at it but do know what I like once someone provides me a decent base tune) but it always seems like practise and Parcells is with Gizzie on that front because practise is for pussies (or professionals perhaps) but if I don't practise/tune (at least the gears) I'll get my ass handed to me, you know, more so than normal.
Obviously I'll still run events with features I dont like but since were on the topic, some other Parcells dislikes include...
1) handicaps
2) multi-class races
3) endurance races
4) Super fast cars - too hard to engage in tight clean battles with all but a few select individuals
oh and cautions :)
I won't spend much time on this, which is odd because if you trace it back I was one of the main supporters for it.
Kill Handicaps. Burn them. They are poisonous. EUSL did not need them.
But.....
I would like to see much more in the way of Sim damage and drag tyres. Once people learn to race with a different attitude, get into the groove, I think they will start to race more circumspectly.
The closest series event races I have ever seen by a HUGE margin was the Ford Escort series that set handicaps so that virtually everyone was withing 1 second of each other. Everyone from Max, to Shrimp when he was first starting out.
Handicaps work, and frankly I don't understand what the problem is. If I were so fast I ALWAYS needed a handicap I would appreciate being in an actual race versus just beating everyone down.
I understand the HC point. It works in its own way. It helps level the playing field and with some builds spectacularly. There is a place for it, just as there is with ballast in some RL series.
However I find much more challenge and enjoyment in knowing that I'm fighting for the best finishing position I can in evenly matched cars. If that means I come fifth or 15th matters not. EUSL was often predictable up front with KC, Tourni, Church and Hyper trading blows. Further down there were other battles. I enjoyed it wherever I had managed to slot in....watching KC run a 3:44 on le mans the other night is not demoralising for me, I thought how can I shave another second off for a 47. Being the slowest by 8 seconds on the ring no longer disheartens me. I'm going to get to know the ring in the #4 in the coming weeks trust me.
No HC's. Sim damage. Pitstops. Tyre management. No assists. I'm a masochist.
You like close racing all the time, so HCs help with that. Great. I like a more mixed bag, the seesaw of a longer race, with everyone getting the best out of themselves and the car they are strapped to.
Just a difference in perspective.
Everyone participate in the series they want. Organisers organise whatever floats their boat.
So much busier in the last 4 months in 2o4f and the variety is great.
Cheers
Hello,
here's a view from a beginner:
[1] I like to race with you - 2O4F -, because I hate those crashkids in the public lobbies. I want clean, fair and space giving racing! (more to that later).
[2] I learned in each race and series I was able to take part in. The support from all is aboslutely great. My biggest problem was and is: I cannot tune a car and I have not enough time to learn it and honestly I must say, that I simply don't have understanding of mechnical issues.
For that reason I like series in which the driver skills are deciding about winning.
[3] I love race cars and so the BTCC was a blast for me, because I loved the variety of the cars. To race against other cars means for me, that I have to watch where is my car faster than the other one.
[4] The SLSC was also great. All had the same car and the handicaps worked. It was such a close field and that gave me a chance to watch those profis and aliens, how they drive and manage to find so much more speed.
[5] My first series - the good old EUSL - was sometimes boring for me, because I was so much behind all others. To race against somebody is for me more important than to win.
[6] I love "real racing" and so I am a fan from sim damage, pit stops, tyre management (drag tyres), no assists, no lines and cockpit view. Qualification races are also a good idea.
I have to think about that![7] Short tracks and short races are not much fun for me. Three sprint races in a row with different starting grids are okay. I want to race more endurance races. It is fun to take part in a series, but due to my time schedule I am sometimes not able to make it to all races. A single racing event - Britcar 2012 from Tourni - can be a good thing, because than I can try to plan around a fix date.
[8] For me it is important that the cars have a "paint". So number plates and sponsors, which have to be placed onto each car, ist great for me. Sometimes I start Forza and try to find a nice livery for my race car, instead of driving or racing.
[9] I love our teams! Not because my ego needs to be a team boss, but because in a team each one can concentrate on his favourite thing to do. Some a great tuners, some are painters and some give good training and driving lessons.
[10] To race for a win is something different than to race agressive! A win is for me deserved, if I took it in a fair manner. That is not the opinion from all and I understand that. May be it is really fun to push someone beside the track. Maybe it is a emotional rush to survive the first corner as first. For me it is not. I try to race as good and fast as I can. Sure I made and will make mistakes, but never with intention. I am desperately trying to accept track limits.
It is not possible, but sometimes I wish we would have race stewards.
[11] There is something which cannot be changed. The most of the Euro guys are from Great Britain and have the BST. I am from Germany and always one hour later. So the sunday - usually my racing day - is for me a "long" day. That means I cannot assure to participate in all "late" events.
[12] A BIG thank to all, who had and will host a one-time-event or plan, organize, host and handle a whole series! I simply have not enough time to make my own one. Enough ideas are on my desk!
See you all!
Shameless plug ........
Endurance race at Sebring with no handicaps
http://www.2old2play.com/forum/divisions/2old4forza/sub-forum-racing-events-series-information/endurance-race-aussie-v8s-sebr
I've noted it. Really want to. Not sure if the wife will tolerate it. Going to have to earn some credit with her.
Parcells rarely buys cars so I have lots of extra credits (plus no wife). Let me know what you need Poids and we'll work something out.
Is Parcells soliciting prostitution, harrassing a team mate, WTH is this?
Dont go into those Parcells badlands oldschool. These are credits that only the Poidster can earn. Get my drift..gif "169")
Parcells would never do that, pretty sure it must be against the TOS? Of course harrassing Fitzy doesn't count.
Perhaps there are one or 2 things that I feel we should make a permanent fixture. Something like the miata series pops into mind. Maybe we could tweak it to include all 3 generations though.
Just some thoughts here...
Less tunability. Ultimately, I think it only leads to a more spread out field imo.
Sim damage, in a perfect world, I would love this, but lag often creates issues with this. Which is why I usually don't do it.
Drag tires...What's the point uless damage is on?
Thank you Snappy!
Myself,
I don't like to extensively practice
but tuning seems to be ok (?) gears are my next hobby...
I don't like too rigid a structure, less fuss, more fun.
Believe it or not, not really interested in points/cars/credits...although a friendly rivalry can be a hoot (Jimmee)
Abhor drag tires and FWD...
Sim damage usually is fine by me, I'm really pretty good at staying out of it, usually, and if it happens, it happens.
cautions cause cautions, I agree...and synchronized idling's not my forte...
As for multi class, I'll usually pop into whatever is less represented on the track ( My R class driving is getting better)
Handicaps never used to bother me, I never had them, that's started to change, a little.
Don't like incessant whining about handicaps from the guy that been first the last 5 races and still feels the need to try and get the handicap lowered...
and I'll agree with Grim on this, if you're so damn fast why do you feel the need to run into me first lap instead of going around, and why am I on the track with you? And this is aimed at the really quick few...you should be better than that by now. (I'll hazard you're only that fast without traffic around you).
I do like fun, laughs, a good run in a tight race, freedom to express myself on my car, much like I do on the microphone, I'm in here to cut up and get away from work related BS, like Parcells said above. In randoms, I sometimes grab a car a tad less than best to get back in the middle, because that's where the fun happens.
I'm not into prize money, specific sponsors, hell, I've been known to put the wrong car manufacturer on the occasional car, it's happened, two tire sponsors, three once! I'm more into starting on time, talking trash before the race, after, and maybe a little during, and I like to see someone win their first series race once in a while. (I think the last memorable one might have been Skiwi? Ford RS500 series)
I rarely see you racing in an actual series.
1 car DOES make things easier. The Escort series had a fixed build, full rooms to the point a couple weeks I thought I might need a 2nd room and/or guys were left out of the room (but messaged saying they were OK with that)
That series ran races with the ENTIRE field bunched up. Lots of varying skill levels and everyone had a chance to win.
On the other end is a series like the AIX series that was in reality, despite what you made it to be, VERY simple. Overly simplified even. There were simply too many cars and too many options to try and equalize all cars. Part of the appeal of that series IS the OPTIONS available.
Anything extra that was required for the AIX series was provided. All anyone had to do was ask for it. When they did they got it. If taking 5 minutes or less to apply some decals and numbers too a car is too much work for ANYONE then they absolutely should skip the series. It isn't for them.
Everyone talks about "sim" racing, and how the hood or cockpit view contributes to the experience, or they spend big bucks on wheels/pedals for a more realistic experience and that is EXACTLY what the rules and requirements in the AIX series are intended for. And I said that right from the beginning.
Again lots of participation. (and with Euro participation I suspect the rooms would be over full)
I
The BMW series was more laid back, it didn't pay points, we ran handicaps but I didn't do a good job of keeping track of them. We ran fixed cars though some races you had TWO choices.
Again participation was pretty good.
The best participation I have seen since joining the club was Church's BTCC event that had several car choices and just as many or more rules than other series events.
What it boils down to now that I've done a few is: Set the series you want to run. Set the rules. People can like them or not. People can race in it or not. You can never accommodate everyone, nor will I bother to try again in the future.
If you didnt have handicaps then half the lobby would be 5,000 ft in front of the rest, or you would always have the fastest win a series everytime.
Not sure why everyone is suddenly bitching about everything, i think it all works fine.
Handicaps work
End of......
Does anyone want to race with all assists turned off in some R1 cars with no paints and sim damage while blind folded with me?
not a fan of handicaps but understand the need for them, hopefully we will get the option of adding weight in forza 5
You're not sitting in my lap again, Snappy. Blindfold or no.
And I'd love to, but I'm going to bed. Sorry.
Listen no matter what way a series is run you are not going to please everybody, I say run a series the way you think is fair and those that want to run will run and those that don't want to won't, end of..