Tuning Calc

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#1 Sun, 07/08/2012 - 04:15
HLR_King_Cobra's picture
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Tuning Calc

Since the start of FM4 I have been working on a tuning calc. It will give you settings for springs, damping & Roll bars on the first sheet & there is a gearing Calc available on the second sheet.

I have constantly been making slight adjustments to it where I now only feel slightly uncomfortable sharing it with everyone on here. When you try it keep in mind it will not be perfect, but you can adjust basically everything. I have tried to make use of it pretty straightforward but if you have any questions just ask.

To download it just click the link below, go to file & then download as either excel or ods file.

Cobra's Tuning Calc

Couple of things you need to know if you start using the balance modifiers, keep in mind positive numbers generate more oversteer. Nearly every tune I get from there I have to fiddle with the roll bar balance but in general I never touch the spring balance.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 06:41
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The info here is a quick guide from Carroll Smith’s book ‘Tune To Win’

EFFECT ON VEHICLE – POSSIBLE CAUSES

Straight Line Instability

  • Too much rear wheel toe-out.

  • Not enough rear downforce.

  • Too much front downforce.

  • Not enough rear toe-in (under hard acceleration) –presumably for RWD.

  • Too much front toe (either in or out) – car darts over bumps.

  • Front ARB is way too stiff – car darts over bumps.

Instability Under Brakes

  • Front end darts or wanders – too much front brake bias.

  • Car wants to spin – too much rear brake bias.

Response

  • Car feels heavy and unresponsive.

    • Too much downforce.

  • Car feels sloppy and is slow to take a set in corners.

    • Too little shock.

    • Too much body roll (not enough spring and/or ARB).

  • Car responds too quickly, is twitchy, and slides easily.

    • Too little downforce.

    • Too much shock, too much spring, and/or too much ARB.

    • Too much tire pressure.

Understeer

  • Corner entry understeer – car won’t turn in at all.

    • Front tires not wide enough.

    • Too much front roll stiffness – ARBs and/or springs.

    • Not enough front bump – shocks.

    • Not enough front downforce.

    • Too much dynamic camber on front wheels (not enough static negative camber).

  • Corner entry understeer – car turns in initially then starts to push.

    • Too much front toe-in.

    • Rebound too stiff – shocks (not enough droop travel).

    • Not enough front downforce.

    • Bump not stiff enough – shocks.

  • Corner entry understeer – car turns in and then darts.

    • Insufficient front suspension travel in either or both directions – shocks.

Oversteer

  • Corner exit oversteer – gets progressively worse from the time throttle is applied.

    • Too much rear roll stiffness.

    • Too much rear camber.

    • Too little rear downforce.

    • Too little rear toe-in.

    • Not enough rear spring, shock, or ARB – allows car to roll over on outside rear wheel.

  •  Corner exit oversteer (sudden) - car takes its set then breaks loose.

    • Not enough rear suspension travel (too much shock in either bump, rebound, or both).

 

CAUSES – EFFECT ON VEHICLE

Springs

  • Too much spring – overall

    • Harsh and choppy ride, lack of tire compliance.

    • Can’t put power down on corner exit - excessive wheelspin.

    • Car slides too much.

  • Too much spring – front

    • Initial understeer.

    • Front end breaks loose in corners.

    • Front end breaks loose over bumps.

  • Too much spring – rear

    • Oversteer when power is applied on corner exit.

    • Excessive wheelspin.

  • Too little spring – overall

    • Car bottoms out.

    • Car feels like it’s floating.

    • Sloppy response.

    • Car is slow to take its set.

  • Too little spring – front

    • Front end hits ground under brakes.

    • Too much body roll on corner entry.

    • Initial understeer – car won’t point in.

  • Too little spring – rear

    • Too much squat under acceleration, and the resultant increase in negative camber.

    • Car falls over on outside rear wheel causing power-on oversteer.

Anti-Roll Bars

  • Too much ARB – overall

    • Very sudden turning response and little feel.

    • Car slides or skates instead of taking its set.

    • May dart over one wheel bumps or diagonal bumps.

  • Too much ARB – front

    • Corner entry understeer that gets progressively worse.

    • Steady state understeer in the middle of sweeping turns.

  • Too much ARB – rear

    • Corner exit oversteer when throttle is applied.

    • Excessive sliding coming out of corners.

  • Too little ARB – overall

    • Car is sloppy and lacks response.

    • Car is slow to transition, especially in chicanes and esses.

    • Car rolls too much resulting in too much dynamic, positive camber and the resultant loss of cornering power due to decrease in tire traction.

  • Too little ARB – front

    • Car rolls over onto outside tire on corner entry then ‘washes out’ (understeers).

    • Car lacks steering response and is slow to change direction.

  • Too little ARB – rear

    • Back end doesn’t want to rotate on corner exit under power (difficult to throttle steer).

 

Shock Absorbers

  • Too much shock – overall

    • Very sudden car with harsh ride, sliding, and wheel patter.

    • Car crashes over road surface irregularities.

  • Too much rebound adjustment

    • Wheels do not return to road surface quickly after displacement.

    • Inside wheel pulls off the road surface in a corner.

    • Lack of tire compliance over bumps and surface undulations.

    • Car may be jacked down in long corners.

  • Too much bump adjustment

    • Initial reaction to bumps and curbs is harsh.

    • Initial chassis roll slow to develop.

    • Car slides rather than sticks.

    • Driven wheels hop when the power is put down.

  • Too little shock – overall

    • Car floats a lot in ride and oscillates after bumps (underdamped).

    • Slow and sloppy response.

    • Chassis rolls too quickly.

  • Too little rebound adjustment

    • Oscillates after bumps.

    • Doesn’t put the power down well.

  • Too little bump adjustment

    • Initial bump reaction soft.

    • Car dives and squats a lot under brakes and under power.

    • Car rolls quickly and falls over outside tires – front tire on corner entry and rear tire on exit.

Wheel Alignment

  • Front toe-in – too much

    • Car darts over bumps, under the brakes, and during corner entry.

    • Car won’t point into corners.

  • Front toe-out – too much

    • Car wanders under the brakes.

    • Straight line instability especially over one wheel and diagonal bumps.

    • Car may point into corners then refuse to take a set

    • Understeer as a result of tire scrub in long corners.

  • Rear toe-in – too much

    • Rear feels light and unstable on corner entry.

    • Car slides a bit in corners rather than rolling freely.

  • Rear toe-in – too little

    • Power on oversteer during corner exit.

  • Rear toe-out – any

    • Power oversteer during corner exit.

    • Straight line instability.

  • Front wheel caster – too much

    • Excessive physical steering effort (probably non-applicable with the controller)

  • Front wheel caster – too little

    • Too little steering feel and feedback (also probably non-applicable with the controller)

  • Camber – too much negative

    • Inside of tire will be hotter than the rest and wear faster.

    • Front tires – reduced braking capacity (dive)

    • Rear tires – reduced acceleration capacity (squat)

  • Camber – too much positive

    • Outside of tire will be hotter than the rest and wear faster.

    • Rear tires – corner exit oversteer and reduced tire traction.

    • Rear tires - If extreme may cause corner entrance instability.

    • Front tires – too much body roll and understeer after car turns in.

Tires

  • Too much tire pressure

    • Harsh ride.

    • Excessive wheel patter, sliding and wheelspin.

    • High temperature at center of tire.

  • Too little tire pressure

    • Soft and mushy response.

    • High tire temperatures at inner and outer edges.

    • Reduced contact patch

 

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 06:49
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Thanks for sharing Bro.

Sun, 07/08/2012 - 08:37
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These will give you a good starting point as the numbers aren't that far off where I start.

 

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 03:03
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what is Aspect Ratio on the wheels/tyres ??? and where do you find it ?

 

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 07:53
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225/50/18  50 is the aspect ratio 

285/40/20 40 is the aspect ratio

 

 

Hope that helps

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 08:24
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Which is the ratio of tread width to sidewall height? No?

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 08:26
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yep, thus the term aspect ratio

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 08:31
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Thanks Jim. Thought it might have been, but didn't want to use the spreadsheet if I got them values wrong, although, it probably wouldn't have made that much difference ??? So it's the tyre wall depth from rim to road... Thanks..
Fri, 07/13/2012 - 12:10 (Reply to #9)
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RogueGoose wrote:
Thanks Jim. Thought it might have been, but didn't want to use the spreadsheet if I got them values wrong, although, it probably wouldn't have made that much difference ??? So it's the tyre wall depth from rim to road... Thanks..

The aspect ratio only has effect on the gear calc, there it is crucial for calculating the circumference of the tire. I will post up a usage guide for the entire calc later, where you can find all required stats & stuff like that.

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 08:32
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So are they actually interested in sidewall flex?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 08:00
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Made some small adjustments to the calc (tire adjustment for ARB), changed the layout & tweaked some stuff on the gear calc. Also started with a quick usage guide in the second post, far from final but a start.

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 06:48
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thats looking a little better, but could i ask 1 favour...

 

could you make the cell sizes slightly smaller, so the whole page is visible on my crappy screen please.. keep having to scroll up and down all the time :(

 

thank you

 

[IMG]http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx283/RogueGoose/KC.png[/IMG]

 

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 08:58 (Reply to #13)
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Should be better now but don't complain about it being to small wink

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 09:38
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Absoluteley Perfect [IMG]http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx283/RogueGoose/KC2.png[/IMG]

 

although the text maybe a little small :) not really :)

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 11:49
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Looks really nice. Was just wondering if it would be possible to get one with the measurements in Metric (KW, KG's etc) ?

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 12:38 (Reply to #16)
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Rausner wrote:

Looks really nice. Was just wondering if it would be possible to get one with the measurements in Metric (KW, KG's etc) ?

I could do it but it would be a lot of work & I basically just made this for personal use, liked the results and decided to share it. You could change to english units in the hud options. Only difference once your racing is the distance between opponents online and the speed your driving.
I'm belgian so we use the Metric system here as well, but I've gotten used to playing forza with the English units.

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 01:30
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I'll swap it then, just like you told me when we raced last night. Will give it a go tonight! Thanks!

Thu, 08/02/2012 - 06:22
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I can't figure out the gear calculator.  I put in the numbers but it shows my car's top speed at 200 when I wanted it to be 175

Thu, 08/02/2012 - 14:51 (Reply to #19)
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Steelerguy wrote:

I can't figure out the gear calculator.  I put in the numbers but it shows my car's top speed at 200 when I wanted it to be 175

The final gear is calculated to be hitting the top speed @ power rpm. Since most cars don't hit max power @ redline the speed you'll see in the calc will be higher because that's the speed @ redline.

Some people just want cars for top speed runs & thats what the calc gives you. If you're just trying to get a certain speed out of the last gear cause the car runs out of track just play with the top speed input till the calc gives you what you want.

Thu, 08/02/2012 - 15:07 (Reply to #20)
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Thanks for the explanation on the tuning calculator.  I spend most of my time in A class cars and I fell they should hit  at least 160 on the main straight at Road America but I have a couple of cars I am working on that are only hitting 150.

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 14:02
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Was just wondering if there is a way to see how much downforce there is on the car as I don't know what to put into the calculator?

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 14:18
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You can only see downforce if you build a car with Race aero (aka adjustable aero)

 

Enter the tuning screen and navigate to the aero adjustments, that figures on the bars. 

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 18:58
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I'll need to give this one a try with the new car pack.

If I build a car without FM4's adjustable aero, do I just enter zeros for front and rear downforce?

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 09:55 (Reply to #24)
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Shaggy_SoCal wrote:

I'll need to give this one a try with the new car pack.

If I build a car without FM4's adjustable aero, do I just enter zeros for front and rear downforce?

that's what I do myself, so yeah

Mon, 10/08/2012 - 17:17
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Bump for new members yes

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 12:30
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Uploaded the most recent version today, so if anyone is testing this & has some questions, I'll reply asap.

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 09:32
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Great update Cobra. I'll keep you posted on what I come up with in the calc. I encorage everyone who can't tune well to try the calc at least a few times to see if it improves your car's feel. Also don't forget people, the calc does help to get your car to a better position, but it's the driver that wins the race. Practice with the tunes and get used to them and tweek them to your liking. Great job Cobra. Keep it up. 

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 16:03
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Thanx to Cotter Im giving this a try...I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into this...Kinda messed with it a little but what does "Balance Modifiiers" do and how do I know if I need them????

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 10:41 (Reply to #29)
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katpeeler wrote:

Thanx to Cotter Im giving this a try...I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into this...Kinda messed with it a little but what does "Balance Modifiiers" do and how do I know if I need them????

I implemented those to be able to mess with either the spring or roll-bar balance (more over- or understeer).

In general I don't even touch the springs (general balance through a corner) & with version 1.2 I rarely have to mess with the roll-bars (low-speed cornering) as well. If you want to adjust high-speed cornering balance you should tweak the aero settings, keep in mind that this will affect your spring strenght.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:33 (Reply to #30)
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HLR_King_Cobra wrote:

katpeeler wrote:

Thanx to Cotter Im giving this a try...I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into this...Kinda messed with it a little but what does "Balance Modifiiers" do and how do I know if I need them????

I implemented those to be able to mess with either the spring or roll-bar balance (more over- or understeer).

In general I don't even touch the springs (general balance through a corner) & with version 1.2 I rarely have to mess with the roll-bars (low-speed cornering) as well. If you want to adjust high-speed cornering balance you should tweak the aero settings, keep in mind that this will affect your spring strenght.

I have used your calculator on 3 of my cars that I have already had good lap times in and 2 cars that I couldnt get a good lap on if my life dependend on it..All of which I had to put in a race transmision in order to use the gear calculator. For some reason I couldnt get good results using your forumula on your baseline tuning..

Tires:       fwd:          F = 29         R = 30
                rwd:          F = 28,5      R = 29
                awd:         F = 28,5      R = 29,5

Alignment:          Camber:         F = -1,1       R = -0,9
                           Toe:                F = 0,2        R = 0,0
                           Caster:           5,4

Ride height: As low as possible & Front 0,2” lower than Rear

Braking:              Balance:        47%
                           Pressure:       119%

Differential:         fwd:           Accel: 25          Decel: 0

                            rwd:           Accel: 35         Decel: 10

                            awd:           F Accel: 25          F Decel: 0
                                               R Accel: 75         R Decel: 25
                                               Split: 25/75

 

BUT......I was able to get about 2 seconds on a lap using the your tuning calculator...It seems I have been runing my cars too soft in the springs/roll bars. But I still had to soften them up just a little using the calculator..It was giving me to much oversteer..GREAT TUNING CALCULATOR...

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