Mixing all those "types" together, could really hinder the flow of info on the forums.
Can you explain why this would be? I just went over to the forza forum and 9 of the first ten threads are not about game action or the game itself. How does having a thread titled "looking for racing peeps" or something like that not get traction from other racers no matter what forum it's in?
I then went to racing games forum - 5 threads total.
The 2O4Forza forum is the actual Forza forum with 8354 posts if your counting, the public one is just used as a place to catch those looking to join.
[b]I think I mentioned it earler. This is easy to quantify. You need a professional (put together by someone who has experience in creating them) customer/user satisfaction survey. You could gather a lot of data...people may be more honest if its anonymous.[/b]
That would give you a solid set of data about not only what people do here, but what their perceptions are, what their needs are, what their requests are....etc.
Then instead of everyone postulating...you can use actual hard data to make decisions about direction, tone, content, features etc.
I would think it would be awesome just in prioritizing what features to work on in what order.
To my knowledge this has never happened. The only user input is "Hey, what do you guys want/think?" and an invite to post. It's a flawed way to guage satisfaction and user experience.
That's the problem with playing to the majority, the minority will get the shaft; and as such, you will see people split from the site and people leaving. Have seen it happen time and again.
So you are suggesting arbitrarily giving the MAJORITY the shaft and making them leave??
Walla is right, data is your friend.
The issue seems to be how to meet the needs of the community to get the community participating, whether it's through clans or not. And the best way to determine that is to get information. And any professional that would design a survey would start by asking what your target audience is, which is the first step.
Who do you want 2o2p to be for? The easy answer is "gamers over 25", but that's too broad. There are many different user bases within 2o2p, and each have their own needs. Most gamers over 25 have families. Some want to be able to game with their kids. Others want kids kept out of games. Open game events like the one Deep is running assumes no one under 25, cuz that the sign on the door. Some gamers over 25 might not participate because they want to game with their kids.
I'm not saying that's the case, because that's why you need data. Forum posting, by its nature, is a biased sample as not all your potential user base has the same chance of responding; not all potential users are members, and even among members, not all of them will see this or respond. All our suggestions here are anecdotal at best, which while helpful, are qualitative and not quantitative.
[b]I think I mentioned it earler. This is easy to quantify. You need a professional (put together by someone who has experience in creating them) customer/user satisfaction survey. You could gather a lot of data...people may be more honest if its anonymous.[/b]
That would give you a solid set of data about not only what people do here, but what their perceptions are, what their needs are, what their requests are....etc.
Then instead of everyone postulating...you can use actual hard data to make decisions about direction, tone, content, features etc.
I would think it would be awesome just in prioritizing what features to work on in what order.
To my knowledge this has never happened. The only user input is "Hey, what do you guys want/think?" and an invite to post. It's a flawed way to guage satisfaction and user experience.
Walla is right, data is your friend.
The issue seems to be how to meet the needs of the community to get the community participating, whether it's through clans or not. And the best way to determine that is to get information. And any professional that would design a survey would start by asking what your target audience is, which is the first step.
Who do you want 2o2p to be for? The easy answer is "gamers over 25", but that's too broad. There are many different user bases within 2o2p, and each have their own needs. Most gamers over 25 have families. Some want to be able to game with their kids. Others want kids kept out of games. Open game events like the one Deep is running assumes no one under 25, cuz that the sign on the door. Some gamers over 25 might not participate because they want to game with their kids.
I'm not saying that's the case, because that's why you need data. Forum posting, by its nature, is a biased sample as not all your potential user base has the same chance of responding; not all potential users are members, and even among members, not all of them will see this or respond. All our suggestions here are anecdotal at best, which while helpful, are qualitative and not quantitative.
Walla and Plato have excellent points and Plato's original post a few pages back was outstanding. Without some form of market research data any decision made is at best an educated guess. It might also help if there was a clear mission statement of what the vision is for 2Old2Play. I'm reading a mixed messages of it is a business, it's not a business, we need more traffic to keep the lights on, ect. Without a defined goal it's a bit challenging for anyone to set a course of action and or destination.
Can anyone weigh in on if it's technically possible on this site to mark a thread public or private? Several have thought this was a good idea but we're spinning our wheels if it can't be done.
Yes it would be possible. However the issue would then be having multiple forums for people to keep track off. That would be my main concern. For instance, if someone in 2o2phalo has something really great to post about Halo, and I was a new user (or even an old one) would I really want to keep track of 2 different Halo areas?
I see your point, but it's kind of a catch 22. IF you open forums up, you'll give more people access (which I think is one of the goals) so they can be involved in more discussions and so new people can browse places and see where they might fit in. It also means that you may have more conversations to manage, some of them redundant. I would probably like to be involved in some Halo discussions that other clans have, so I don't look at it like a burden to keep up on several conversations.
Reducing the number of public forums might help, but I think the dedicated forums are necessary in some cases. I don't know the answer, but I do think that there is a solution somewhere...
Can anyone weigh in on if it's technically possible on this site to mark a thread public or private? Several have thought this was a good idea but we're spinning our wheels if it can't be done.
A side issue is that I know many of you state you love 2o2p, but I have seen several posts that are along the lines of "2o2p hurts my clan" and really care nothing about what happens here. This sentiment is not rare either. I'm not sure why people have grown so angry with 2o2p, but I think it begs the question of why. Nothing I have done at 2o2p has been to hurt anyones experience here. My goal with V3 wasn't a master plan to kill off the very thing i've spent 7 years building. Any missteps are certainly not done on purpose and the goal of this conversation is to bring to light a very real problem. On the flip side, this is probably the most productive thread that I've seen in the last 7 years of 2o2p. Real ideas, real concerns, and a universal understanding that something got to change.
Wow, I'm just blown away to have even read that statement!!!! Maybe I'm nieve or havnt been here for as long as some others, but to imply that "2o2p hurts my clan"???? What is that all about. Are not the clans still here and the ones that split off a direct result of having 2o2p to begin with?? How does 2o2p hurt your clan?? I mean really, I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE MY CLAN EITHER, but if that is the sentiment of you and yours and you truely feel 2o2p hurts it, no disrespect intended, but maybe your clan should reside off site.
Can anyone weigh in on if it's technically possible on this site to mark a thread public or private? Several have thought this was a good idea but we're spinning our wheels if it can't be done.
A side issue is that I know many of you state you love 2o2p, but I have seen several posts that are along the lines of "2o2p hurts my clan" and really care nothing about what happens here. This sentiment is not rare either. I'm not sure why people have grown so angry with 2o2p, but I think it begs the question of why. Nothing I have done at 2o2p has been to hurt anyones experience here. My goal with V3 wasn't a master plan to kill off the very thing i've spent 7 years building. Any missteps are certainly not done on purpose and the goal of this conversation is to bring to light a very real problem. On the flip side, this is probably the most productive thread that I've seen in the last 7 years of 2o2p. Real ideas, real concerns, and a universal understanding that something got to change.
Wow, I'm just blown away to have even read that statement!!!! Maybe I'm nieve or havnt been here for as long as some others, but to imply that "2o2p hurts my clan"???? What is that all about. Are not the clans still here and the ones that split off a direct result of having 2o2p to begin with?? How does 2o2p hurt your clan?? I mean really, I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE MY CLAN EITHER, but if that is the sentiment of you and yours and you truely feel 2o2p hurts it, no disrespect intended, but maybe your clan should reside off site.
Trust me it's not a rare thing. In the last day alone I've seen several posts about how 2o2p sucks and we're no longer needed. It's usually followed up by "what have the done for me lately" and the like. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt to read, but I've learned not take it personally and keep looking for improvments. The main issue I see now is that most people know we have a problem, but ralley around the idea of keeping things as they are.
I agree with webmokey when he states that site events are 1 day solutions. They don't effect the forums and only help to put a band aid on things. Sure I think they're great for their own reasons and Deep has proven from last night that they can be wildly successful. But if the model remains, the issue will always come back. Deep will get new people to play with old, those people will recruit to their private areas, and the discussion will once again be lost.
Doesn’t this thread in of itself demonstrate that people will come out of the woodwork if the subject matter is something they find interesting/relevant?
People want to participate, you guys just have too many obstacles in place that prevent spontaneous exchanges.
People want to participate, you guys just have too many obstacles in place that prevent spontaneous exchanges.
Examples?
Too many forums – which you’ve already addressed. I think this will correct a lot of issues.
After 7 years, I’m still now sure what’s acceptable subject matter on the forums and what’s not. I’m not advocating anything in particular, but someone needs to explain the rationale here where politics are taboo and boob threads are stickied at the top of forums. One’s a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen for anyone in an office environment and the other might make someone mad for 5 minutes.
People want to participate, you guys just have too many obstacles in place that prevent spontaneous exchanges.
Examples?
Too many forums – which you’ve already addressed. I think this will correct a lot of issues.
After 7 years, I’m still now sure what’s acceptable subject matter on the forums and what’s not. I’m not advocating anything in particular, but someone needs to explain the rationale here where politics are taboo and boob threads are stickied at the top of forums. One’s a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen for anyone in an office environment and the other might make someone mad for 5 minutes.
The difference is this, if you are in an office and click on a thread topic with the words Boobs in them, you know what to expect when you get in the thread and to play naive and say I HAD NO IDEA THAT THREAD HADS PICS OF BOOBS IN THEM is just nonsense.
Having pm's sent to you accusing you to be a racist pig/child molester/baby Jesus hater because of your beliefs in something or the lack of your beliefs is something is what has happened with Political threads. Did it happen in every political thread...NO, was it a one time thing, NO.
Regardless, this vears way off course of the discussion. But in the effort to answer your question I have replied.
Clans are necessary in a site of this size to keep a community feel amongst the vast array of games, and systems.
If I don't ever play something, I really don't want to sift through many pages of useless info to me (not saying your investment is useless, just not my cup of tea).
Also, with this many members it is VERY easy to get lost in the crowd. I've joined a couple clans, and know quite a few people here.
XBL needs to expand the FL limit, that's the only way this whole issue can be "merged" FoF tags are ok, but limit out at 100 people, AND you can't link tags to see others so no FoF mass tag where everyone is friends with say, 1 of 10 lists (Halo1, Halo2, Halo3, etc)
I like the idea of mixers and clan matches, it's just that with lives getting in the way; it typically has a lackluster turnout.
I'm a fairly competitive Halo player, when I get to play. My comments seem to be in the minority with some, so I post in the clan forum(s) and post occasionally in the general Halo thread. Nothing against the community, it's just that I don't like being seen as bitching about a gameplay mechanic ruining balance or competitive functionality.
Also, you have guys who play to win and are good. And you have guys who get hammered and play for fun. Mixing those two types alone, can have pretty nasty repercussions. I would love to play with the Profanity guys (if they ever play halo again) but I can't commit with my work schedule.
It's a game afterall, play it with like minded people...thus: clans.
Good points. Returning to the party theme, if we open all the clans, then that's just a bunch more rooms to look in to see if you find somethig immediately interesting.
So let's talk pie in the sky, since I have no idea what's capable on the back end of the site. Could we really have a "threads gone wild" forum whereby you (the creator of the thread) could check a box in your clan thread and have it copy into a public forum, lock the clan thread, and provide a linkout? Would not need all of those features, but if it could at least be moved, that would be pretty cool. The rest would be gravy and could be done manually if need be.
Couple that with a decrease in the amount of forums, and a new person would have a much smaller buffet to look over and could still find people of like mind, still see what clans they were from, and still find a place to fit in. Who wouldn't go check out the Threads Gone Wild forum? I know I would.
Basically what monkee is proposing is like a "Trending on Twitter" solution. What's being talked about the most? Leave the clans as is, maybe open them up, but then allow clan leaders to promote topics to the "Threads Gone Wild" area to let others see what the clans are talking about the most.
I also agree that the number of forums in the public area need to be consolidated and more focused. I just don't have time to go check that many forums on a regular basis so I just hit my main clan forum if I can.
I keep coming back to opening clan forums won't help this. On the current platform there is a whole "Group Page" that I thought people could see. It's a pretty large amount of space where if you take the time, you can do a pretty thorough write up of what your clan is about and who you are. There are places to post calendars of events, list games you play, even include pics, logos and videos.
How much more does someone need to make a decision? I mean you can see the package...it's not like you are getting married. If you see some events on the calendar or something in their description tickles your fancy...you send a request to contact them.
I come back to our clan...when someone contacts us we don't immediately let them in...that is for both their benefit and ours. Anyone can see what we are about on the outside, contact us, and get invited in, handheld by a staff member and get introduced to some folks from the clan...and play with them.
Just recently we had someone apply. They were a MW3 player. We got them into some games with the appropriate staff member. We found out pretty quickly that he basically only likes playing hardcore mode games of MW3. As the staff member told him, we have players that prefer non hardcore games. Now, you would never know that from looking at the forums...either in the clan or out. It's just not something that gets talked about.
This person could have looked over the forums...decided we looked like a fun group and ended up having the same experience. So how did opening the forums help? Worse...we have had a few people join because they liked the forum...but then never played any games with the clan. How does that benefit us as a clan...or as individual site members?
I keep coming back to opening clan forums won't help this. On the current platform there is a whole "Group Page" that I thought people could see. It's a pretty large amount of space where if you take the time, you can do a pretty thorough write up of what your clan is about and who you are. There are places to post calendars of events, list games you play, even include pics, logos and videos.
How does leaving them closed help? What's the harm if the threads that need to be private can be, but everything else is open. I'm not sure I understand the opposition to the idea.
Personally, I can see a lot of benefit to having the forums open (both as a new member and a 7 year member) as opposed to just looking at a tiny tid bit of info on a "Group Page".
I think with games that have a large fan base on the site, having clan or rather group forums are necessary just to encourage like minded gamerrs to group with one another, but they should all be open groups. I believe open groups would encourage extra cross mingling of groups and more enjoyable broader ranging gaming would be the result.
Also I have been a member of three exclusive clans since I joined 2o2p. Two of the three groups had problems with inner politics. None of which I have understood personally but I believe that being behind closed doors, makes people feel they have the right to misbehave and abuse others. I think had these groups been open, people would have behaved themselves.
I don't think anyone is saying that we get rid of all the different forums for each game and we just "mix all those types together". If they are, I agree that would be a bad idea. There are some forums tht could be consolidated IMHO, but I'm jsut talking about opening up a majority of clan forums for everyone to participate in.
I don't know. Politics can play into thing whether a forum is open or closed. The only difference is that it could have been moderated easier if the group forum was open. Unfortunately, sometimes the internet brings out the worst in people, and stuff like you describes happens. I still would like to see some openness to the clans, though. Like some have said, it makes it easier to tell if you feel that particular group is right for you.
As far as people saying 2o2p hurts clans...well, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, V3 had a real rough launch, but it's improving. And I'd argue that 2o2p has been more than accomodating to the clans. At least that's been my experience in 5+ years.
I think that we need to look into most of the ideas presented, and implement many of them to varying degrees. Consolidated forums, open areas for clans so people can get a better feel for them, more site wide activities, and more in combination will help with more activity for the public areas, IMO.
I think one of the most critical things to consider is that many people (maybe most) [i]want[/i] to find a group to play/converse with. People want to find others with similar interests who they can align with, then enjoy their time together. I would say if you really want more activity in the main forums, solely for the purpose of keeping the site attractive to newcomers, [i]streamline[/i] the clan finding process. Help newcomers find somewhere to fit in. You really just need a positive, active atmosphere in the main, public area of the site that shows people the site is awesome, and helps them find someone to play with, somewhere to hang out, somewhere where everybody knows their name (yes, a shameless reference to Cheers).
Thinking of it as a business or not, a survey may be helpful. Wasn't there a member who was a psych major that did a gaming survey recently? Maybe they could help with the questions?
maybe in a limited fashion, you need some peeps to look at it as a business for you. sort of general managers. i certainly don't expect you to give up any type of authority, but maybe some objective outlook. i will totally admit this is quite an emotional discussion and it's not even my site. i treat it like my site, but it's not. i could imagine how it affects you doodi. they could make an assesment, and you take it for what it's worth to you. it's not that practical, because chances are the only place you would find volunteers to do this for you would be from the community here, and they also would have a conflict of interest.
i'm involved with a family business, and it's easy to let your emotions dictate bad decision making.
i would also like to point out that what is happening here isn't something uncommon. i've attended seminars and had courses that focus on what has gone here. "Growth: The silent killer" was probably the best one.
on the other hand, it's your hobby and you can just do what the fuck you want to do and in the end, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks or does. we only have value if you put a value on us.
maybe in a limited fashion, you need some peeps to look at it as a business for you. sort of general managers. i certainly don't expect you to give up any type of authority, but maybe some objective outlook. i will totally admit this is quite an emotional discussion and it's not even my site. i treat it like my site, but it's not. i could imagine how it affects you doodi. they could make an assesment, and you take it for what it's worth to you. it's not that practical, because chances are the only place you would find volunteers to do this for you would be from the community here, and they also would have a conflict of interest.
i'm involved with a family business, and it's easy to let your emotions dictate bad decision making.
i would also like to point out that what is happening here isn't something uncommon. i've attended seminars and had courses that focus on what has gone here. "Growth: The silent killer" was probably the best one.
on the other hand, it's your hobby and you can just do what the fuck you want to do and in the end, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks or does. we only have value if you put a value on us.
Good to begin with the end in mind. Perhaps I misunderstood that the desired "end" was to increase growth and participation to make the site solvent? If that's not it, then the several folks who have pointed it out are right - have to know what you want first.
And to be clear, I was not suggesting consolidating clan forums - I think they're fine as-is. it's consolidating a bunch of the other forums I'm suggesting.
As far as data goes, remember that if you send out a survey, you can't force people to complete it. So while survey data is useful, it is less useful if you don't get a representative return. Unfortunately, in this case, what might make make it even LESS useful than normal is that the folks who would most likely fill it out are the folks who are already active, and the folks LESS likely to fill it out are the ones you want to become more engaged.
I work with survey data on a daily basis. The representative randomization you'd really want to have will be difficult to achieve here. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but it does mean that "getting data" is no more a complete solution than what we're doing here. It is another source of information though, so as long as it's given proportionate weight, and not looked upon as the true and only picture of the site, then it will be useful.
Good to begin with the end in mind. Perhaps I misunderstood that the desired "end" was to increase growth and participation to make the site solvent? If that's not it, then the several folks who have pointed it out are right - have to know what you want first.
And to be clear, I was not suggesting consolidating clan forums - I think they're fine as-is. it's consolidating a bunch of the other forums I'm suggesting.
As far as data goes, remember that if you send out a survey, you can't force people to complete it. So while survey data is useful, it is less useful if you don't get a representative return. Unfortunately, in this case, what might make make it even LESS useful than normal is that the folks who would most likely fill it out are the folks who are already active, and the folks LESS likely to fill it out are the ones you want to become more engaged.
I work with survey data on a daily basis. The representative randomization you'd really want to have will be difficult to achieve here. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but it does mean that "getting data" is no more a complete solution than what we're doing here. It is another source of information though, so as long as it's given proportionate weight, and not looked upon as the true and only picture of the site, then it will be useful.
Excellent points all, Webmonkee
That's why I think it's important to make sure that any surveys are distributed outside of 2o2p as well - as outside of 2o2p is where the majority of the target memberbase is. Any survey conducted solely within 2o2p would suffer from an egregious display of sample selection bias (which is bad, m'kay)
My suggestion would be to conduct a survey on online gaming habits, how current needs are met, how current needs are not met, what sort of features are required, etc. which would be a form of primary market research, which is almost certainly required, unless someone wants to go trolling NPD data and gamer demographics. But from what I've found that's publicly available (including through my university library for a project last year) most of the data is demographic in nature. If someone has access to primary research based on usage, that'd be a great starting point.
Also, any data gathered in primary research is an asset and proprietary. If you own it, you can use it when talking to advertisers. It allows for more targetted advertising (not just here on 2o2p), fits in with the rest of Media Crumb and will help you create a rocking gaming community.
Long story short isn't the main problem (the initial problem that spawned this discussion) generating new members to 2o2p and retaining them? Is there any way to tell what the turnover rate on new members is? Say like how many members joined in the 2nd quarter this year and how many of those have 3 or less posts?
The whole thought of opening up clans and having people posting publicly was to create a more active place that would make new members stick. What if that isn't the problem? What if the problem is attracting new members first and foremost? How would taking the 800+ members of 2o4F or our 75 members of 2o2phalo and throwing them into the main forums attract new people to the site?
In my eyes clans would help member retention in the long run. I always hear a lot of clannies past and present say "I wouldn't be playing anymore if it wasn't for this clan".
Maybe the real problem is getting them here in the first place.
Long story short isn't the main problem (the initial problem that spawned this discussion) generating new members to 2o2p and retaining them? Is there any way to tell what the turnover rate on new members is? Say like how many members joined in the 2nd quarter this year and how many of those have 3 or less posts?
The whole thought of opening up clans and having people posting publicly was to create a more active place that would make new members stick. What if that isn't the problem? What if the problem is attracting new members first and foremost? How would taking the 800+ members of 2o4F or our 75 members of 2o2phalo and throwing them into the main forums attract new people to the site?
In my eyes clans would help member retention in the long run. I always hear a lot of clannies past and present say "I wouldn't be playing anymore if it wasn't for this clan".
Maybe the real problem is getting them here in the first place.
Its defiantly not getting them. We get the same amount of people as we normally have (about 40 or more a month). Realistically though, once they get here, who are they going to talk to? This seems to be the question that can't be answered by a more closed off group. I mean sure, if they're into Halo they might come across deeps threads and now that his clanless playdate is a success they could even get to play, but that doesn't really support the closed clan ideal.
Also, I think there seems to be this ideal that I have some hard-on to get rid of clans or open them up. I've heard from even my closest friends in Profantiy and 2o2p OG a similar sentiment. But realistically, is it more likely I've looked at all the problems and ways to fix things or that I've just made a choice to blow up everything cause I'm bored and hate peoples feelings.
I want this place to succeed, business or not. I want people to be happy. I want to see it grow. If I thought for a second that we had trouble gaining new members I don't think this thread would even exist. However, I will state I don't think its CLANs that are the only problem. For whatever reason it keeps getting misinterpreted as my position. Instead, I think the model is what is broken. In its' simplest form, if people see that there is content and have ACCESS to that content they will be much more likely to engage in conversation and stay.
Long story short isn't the main problem (the initial problem that spawned this discussion) generating new members to 2o2p and retaining them? Is there any way to tell what the turnover rate on new members is? Say like how many members joined in the 2nd quarter this year and how many of those have 3 or less posts?
The whole thought of opening up clans and having people posting publicly was to create a more active place that would make new members stick. What if that isn't the problem? What if the problem is attracting new members first and foremost? How would taking the 800+ members of 2o4F or our 75 members of 2o2phalo and throwing them into the main forums attract new people to the site?
In my eyes clans would help member retention in the long run. I always hear a lot of clannies past and present say "I wouldn't be playing anymore if it wasn't for this clan".
Maybe the real problem is getting them here in the first place.
Its defiantly not getting them. We get the same amount of people as we normally have (about 40 or more a month). Realistically though, once they get here, who are they going to talk to? This seems to be the question that can't be answered by a more closed off group. I mean sure, if they're into Halo they might come across deeps threads and now that his clanless playdate is a success they could even get to play, but that doesn't really support the closed clan ideal.
Also, I think there seems to be this ideal that I have some hard-on to get rid of clans or open them up. I've heard from even my closest friends in Profantiy and 2o2p OG a similar sentiment. But realistically, is it more likely I've looked at all the problems and ways to fix things or that I've just made a choice to blow up everything cause I'm bored and hate peoples feelings.
I want this place to succeed, business or not. I want people to be happy. I want to see it grow. If I thought for a second that we had trouble gaining new members I don't think this thread would even exist. However, I will state I don't think its CLANs that are the only problem. For whatever reason it keeps getting misinterpreted as my position. [b] Instead, I think the model is what is broken[/b]. In its' simplest form, if people see that there is content and have ACCESS to that content they will be much more likely to engage in conversation and stay.
The part in bold is getting to the root of the issue.
If you think it's the model that's the problem, then there's a place to start. Primarily, in what way do you find the current model is insufficient? What are the goals and objectives you have in mind? A certain retention rate on new members past a certain number of weeks? (as a metric, it's influenced by too many variables on it's own to be worth much - it's something that would sort itself out if other metrics are improved) A certain number of new posts / contect being created that meets a certain level of quality (ie, not spam or post whoring) in a given time frame?
Well, content is created by what are essentially volunteers, and as a model, it's a financially viable one. It would get expensive quite quickly to pay a group of members to be content creators. But that's essentially what you're after; fortunately, not all rewards are financial.
So then it gets into motivation theory, and how to get volunteers to contribute. The easiest way (and a way that works in any organization, including businesses, associations, clubs, WoW guilds) is by establishing a vision and communicating that vision to your member-base. IE, you want 2o2p to be the best place on the internet for gamers over 25 to come and enjoy the recreation of gaming with other gamers with similar life experiences, based on the fact that at 25 or over people are generally at a similar stage of the lifecycle curve. The "best" is a relative term, so it may require a bit more explicit definition. While I think I get what you mean by virtue of having been a member since, what, 2005(?) and in that way we share a mental model of 2o2p based on history, I'm trying to illustrate the importance of putting your vision down, in words, and communicating it to everyone, in an explicit and clear manner. Whether it's a business or a hobby, all organizations (generic groups of people interacting with one another) tend to be more motivated when they're working towards a common goal and understand what the shared vision / values are. Kind of the like "Don't be a dick" policy in the ToS.
Start there, with a vision, communicate it, and the rest becomes much easier.
What about those Xbox dashboard promoted events that 2old2play has done in the past. I participated in one for Gears 2 and that was a hell of a lot of fun and brought quite an influx of traffic to the site. I recall an episode of TNT and 2o2type where Doodi and Smooth said they did one for Halo.
How much does it cost to get on the "Events" tab in the Xbox dashboard?
Maybe I'm suggesting this too early at this point in the discussion.
Here's my opinion. If you kill the clans, there will be a huge backlash. Sure, you want overall site participation but killing the clans won't fix that. You are risking alienating and running off long time members on the gamble that they will just fold into Off Topic and bring in more new traffic. In truth, most will leave the site from feeling betrayed or they'll look elsewhere for a private area to connect with those they are closest to.
I share stuff in the clan forum with those I'm most familiar with that I would never post in Off Topic. I also enjoy the relative privacy of our clan forum. I can say that one the the biggest aggravation is only seeing the forums that you are granted access to. Bring back the separate "Clan Forums" page and make it easy to find from the homepage. When new people show up now, they have to look for site clans and try to search out what they want. If they could go to a separate page and see a list of clans as well as the post count, it would give them a feeling of who is active and who isn't. It would benefit the clans and keep those longtime members that have been here for years
Personally, I believe if you kill the clans, you kill the site. Period. V2 may have seemed more complicated but people liked it and were comfortable with it. V3 may be better from a creator/admin perspective but, from a user perspective, it's just not as user friendly. Little things like smileys make a difference.
I'll also throw in that the biggest complaint I've heard within my clan is that loyal users have been ignored for the sake of bringing in new blood. Those "old hats" feel aggravated that their voices aren't being heard after years of loyalty. In this case, whether or not it's true, that's the perception.
The 2O4Forza forum is the actual Forza forum with 8354 posts if your counting, the public one is just used as a place to catch those looking to join.
Walla is right, data is your friend.
The issue seems to be how to meet the needs of the community to get the community participating, whether it's through clans or not. And the best way to determine that is to get information. And any professional that would design a survey would start by asking what your target audience is, which is the first step.
Who do you want 2o2p to be for? The easy answer is "gamers over 25", but that's too broad. There are many different user bases within 2o2p, and each have their own needs. Most gamers over 25 have families. Some want to be able to game with their kids. Others want kids kept out of games. Open game events like the one Deep is running assumes no one under 25, cuz that the sign on the door. Some gamers over 25 might not participate because they want to game with their kids.
I'm not saying that's the case, because that's why you need data. Forum posting, by its nature, is a biased sample as not all your potential user base has the same chance of responding; not all potential users are members, and even among members, not all of them will see this or respond. All our suggestions here are anecdotal at best, which while helpful, are qualitative and not quantitative.
Walla and Plato have excellent points and Plato's original post a few pages back was outstanding. Without some form of market research data any decision made is at best an educated guess. It might also help if there was a clear mission statement of what the vision is for 2Old2Play. I'm reading a mixed messages of it is a business, it's not a business, we need more traffic to keep the lights on, ect. Without a defined goal it's a bit challenging for anyone to set a course of action and or destination.
I see your point, but it's kind of a catch 22. IF you open forums up, you'll give more people access (which I think is one of the goals) so they can be involved in more discussions and so new people can browse places and see where they might fit in. It also means that you may have more conversations to manage, some of them redundant. I would probably like to be involved in some Halo discussions that other clans have, so I don't look at it like a burden to keep up on several conversations.
Reducing the number of public forums might help, but I think the dedicated forums are necessary in some cases. I don't know the answer, but I do think that there is a solution somewhere...
Wow, I'm just blown away to have even read that statement!!!! Maybe I'm nieve or havnt been here for as long as some others, but to imply that "2o2p hurts my clan"???? What is that all about. Are not the clans still here and the ones that split off a direct result of having 2o2p to begin with?? How does 2o2p hurt your clan?? I mean really, I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE MY CLAN EITHER, but if that is the sentiment of you and yours and you truely feel 2o2p hurts it, no disrespect intended, but maybe your clan should reside off site.
Trust me it's not a rare thing. In the last day alone I've seen several posts about how 2o2p sucks and we're no longer needed. It's usually followed up by "what have the done for me lately" and the like. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt to read, but I've learned not take it personally and keep looking for improvments. The main issue I see now is that most people know we have a problem, but ralley around the idea of keeping things as they are.
I agree with webmokey when he states that site events are 1 day solutions. They don't effect the forums and only help to put a band aid on things. Sure I think they're great for their own reasons and Deep has proven from last night that they can be wildly successful. But if the model remains, the issue will always come back. Deep will get new people to play with old, those people will recruit to their private areas, and the discussion will once again be lost.
That would probably be a question for Doodi. He's probably the most familiar one here with the software used to create the forums.
Doesn’t this thread in of itself demonstrate that people will come out of the woodwork if the subject matter is something they find interesting/relevant?
People want to participate, you guys just have too many obstacles in place that prevent spontaneous exchanges.
Examples?
Too many forums – which you’ve already addressed. I think this will correct a lot of issues.
After 7 years, I’m still now sure what’s acceptable subject matter on the forums and what’s not. I’m not advocating anything in particular, but someone needs to explain the rationale here where politics are taboo and boob threads are stickied at the top of forums. One’s a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen for anyone in an office environment and the other might make someone mad for 5 minutes.
The difference is this, if you are in an office and click on a thread topic with the words Boobs in them, you know what to expect when you get in the thread and to play naive and say I HAD NO IDEA THAT THREAD HADS PICS OF BOOBS IN THEM is just nonsense.
Having pm's sent to you accusing you to be a racist pig/child molester/baby Jesus hater because of your beliefs in something or the lack of your beliefs is something is what has happened with Political threads. Did it happen in every political thread...NO, was it a one time thing, NO.
Regardless, this vears way off course of the discussion. But in the effort to answer your question I have replied.
Clans are necessary in a site of this size to keep a community feel amongst the vast array of games, and systems.
If I don't ever play something, I really don't want to sift through many pages of useless info to me (not saying your investment is useless, just not my cup of tea).
Also, with this many members it is VERY easy to get lost in the crowd. I've joined a couple clans, and know quite a few people here.
XBL needs to expand the FL limit, that's the only way this whole issue can be "merged" FoF tags are ok, but limit out at 100 people, AND you can't link tags to see others so no FoF mass tag where everyone is friends with say, 1 of 10 lists (Halo1, Halo2, Halo3, etc)
I like the idea of mixers and clan matches, it's just that with lives getting in the way; it typically has a lackluster turnout.
I'm a fairly competitive Halo player, when I get to play. My comments seem to be in the minority with some, so I post in the clan forum(s) and post occasionally in the general Halo thread. Nothing against the community, it's just that I don't like being seen as bitching about a gameplay mechanic ruining balance or competitive functionality.
Also, you have guys who play to win and are good. And you have guys who get hammered and play for fun. Mixing those two types alone, can have pretty nasty repercussions. I would love to play with the Profanity guys (if they ever play halo again) but I can't commit with my work schedule.
It's a game afterall, play it with like minded people...thus: clans.
Good points. Returning to the party theme, if we open all the clans, then that's just a bunch more rooms to look in to see if you find somethig immediately interesting.
So let's talk pie in the sky, since I have no idea what's capable on the back end of the site. Could we really have a "threads gone wild" forum whereby you (the creator of the thread) could check a box in your clan thread and have it copy into a public forum, lock the clan thread, and provide a linkout? Would not need all of those features, but if it could at least be moved, that would be pretty cool. The rest would be gravy and could be done manually if need be.
Couple that with a decrease in the amount of forums, and a new person would have a much smaller buffet to look over and could still find people of like mind, still see what clans they were from, and still find a place to fit in. Who wouldn't go check out the Threads Gone Wild forum? I know I would.
Basically what monkee is proposing is like a "Trending on Twitter" solution. What's being talked about the most? Leave the clans as is, maybe open them up, but then allow clan leaders to promote topics to the "Threads Gone Wild" area to let others see what the clans are talking about the most.
I also agree that the number of forums in the public area need to be consolidated and more focused. I just don't have time to go check that many forums on a regular basis so I just hit my main clan forum if I can.
I keep coming back to opening clan forums won't help this. On the current platform there is a whole "Group Page" that I thought people could see. It's a pretty large amount of space where if you take the time, you can do a pretty thorough write up of what your clan is about and who you are. There are places to post calendars of events, list games you play, even include pics, logos and videos.
How much more does someone need to make a decision? I mean you can see the package...it's not like you are getting married. If you see some events on the calendar or something in their description tickles your fancy...you send a request to contact them.
I come back to our clan...when someone contacts us we don't immediately let them in...that is for both their benefit and ours. Anyone can see what we are about on the outside, contact us, and get invited in, handheld by a staff member and get introduced to some folks from the clan...and play with them.
Just recently we had someone apply. They were a MW3 player. We got them into some games with the appropriate staff member. We found out pretty quickly that he basically only likes playing hardcore mode games of MW3. As the staff member told him, we have players that prefer non hardcore games. Now, you would never know that from looking at the forums...either in the clan or out. It's just not something that gets talked about.
This person could have looked over the forums...decided we looked like a fun group and ended up having the same experience. So how did opening the forums help? Worse...we have had a few people join because they liked the forum...but then never played any games with the clan. How does that benefit us as a clan...or as individual site members?
How does leaving them closed help? What's the harm if the threads that need to be private can be, but everything else is open. I'm not sure I understand the opposition to the idea.
Personally, I can see a lot of benefit to having the forums open (both as a new member and a 7 year member) as opposed to just looking at a tiny tid bit of info on a "Group Page".
I think with games that have a large fan base on the site, having clan or rather group forums are necessary just to encourage like minded gamerrs to group with one another, but they should all be open groups. I believe open groups would encourage extra cross mingling of groups and more enjoyable broader ranging gaming would be the result.
Also I have been a member of three exclusive clans since I joined 2o2p. Two of the three groups had problems with inner politics. None of which I have understood personally but I believe that being behind closed doors, makes people feel they have the right to misbehave and abuse others. I think had these groups been open, people would have behaved themselves.
I don't think anyone is saying that we get rid of all the different forums for each game and we just "mix all those types together". If they are, I agree that would be a bad idea. There are some forums tht could be consolidated IMHO, but I'm jsut talking about opening up a majority of clan forums for everyone to participate in.
I don't know. Politics can play into thing whether a forum is open or closed. The only difference is that it could have been moderated easier if the group forum was open. Unfortunately, sometimes the internet brings out the worst in people, and stuff like you describes happens. I still would like to see some openness to the clans, though. Like some have said, it makes it easier to tell if you feel that particular group is right for you.
As far as people saying 2o2p hurts clans...well, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, V3 had a real rough launch, but it's improving. And I'd argue that 2o2p has been more than accomodating to the clans. At least that's been my experience in 5+ years.
I think that we need to look into most of the ideas presented, and implement many of them to varying degrees. Consolidated forums, open areas for clans so people can get a better feel for them, more site wide activities, and more in combination will help with more activity for the public areas, IMO.
I think one of the most critical things to consider is that many people (maybe most) [i]want[/i] to find a group to play/converse with. People want to find others with similar interests who they can align with, then enjoy their time together. I would say if you really want more activity in the main forums, solely for the purpose of keeping the site attractive to newcomers, [i]streamline[/i] the clan finding process. Help newcomers find somewhere to fit in. You really just need a positive, active atmosphere in the main, public area of the site that shows people the site is awesome, and helps them find someone to play with, somewhere to hang out, somewhere where everybody knows their name (yes, a shameless reference to Cheers).
Thinking of it as a business or not, a survey may be helpful. Wasn't there a member who was a psych major that did a gaming survey recently? Maybe they could help with the questions?
maybe in a limited fashion, you need some peeps to look at it as a business for you. sort of general managers. i certainly don't expect you to give up any type of authority, but maybe some objective outlook. i will totally admit this is quite an emotional discussion and it's not even my site. i treat it like my site, but it's not. i could imagine how it affects you doodi. they could make an assesment, and you take it for what it's worth to you. it's not that practical, because chances are the only place you would find volunteers to do this for you would be from the community here, and they also would have a conflict of interest.
i'm involved with a family business, and it's easy to let your emotions dictate bad decision making.
i would also like to point out that what is happening here isn't something uncommon. i've attended seminars and had courses that focus on what has gone here. "Growth: The silent killer" was probably the best one.
on the other hand, it's your hobby and you can just do what the fuck you want to do and in the end, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks or does. we only have value if you put a value on us.
I approve this message!
Good to begin with the end in mind. Perhaps I misunderstood that the desired "end" was to increase growth and participation to make the site solvent? If that's not it, then the several folks who have pointed it out are right - have to know what you want first.
And to be clear, I was not suggesting consolidating clan forums - I think they're fine as-is. it's consolidating a bunch of the other forums I'm suggesting.
As far as data goes, remember that if you send out a survey, you can't force people to complete it. So while survey data is useful, it is less useful if you don't get a representative return. Unfortunately, in this case, what might make make it even LESS useful than normal is that the folks who would most likely fill it out are the folks who are already active, and the folks LESS likely to fill it out are the ones you want to become more engaged.
I work with survey data on a daily basis. The representative randomization you'd really want to have will be difficult to achieve here. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but it does mean that "getting data" is no more a complete solution than what we're doing here. It is another source of information though, so as long as it's given proportionate weight, and not looked upon as the true and only picture of the site, then it will be useful.
Excellent points all, Webmonkee
That's why I think it's important to make sure that any surveys are distributed outside of 2o2p as well - as outside of 2o2p is where the majority of the target memberbase is. Any survey conducted solely within 2o2p would suffer from an egregious display of sample selection bias (which is bad, m'kay)
My suggestion would be to conduct a survey on online gaming habits, how current needs are met, how current needs are not met, what sort of features are required, etc. which would be a form of primary market research, which is almost certainly required, unless someone wants to go trolling NPD data and gamer demographics. But from what I've found that's publicly available (including through my university library for a project last year) most of the data is demographic in nature. If someone has access to primary research based on usage, that'd be a great starting point.
Also, any data gathered in primary research is an asset and proprietary. If you own it, you can use it when talking to advertisers. It allows for more targetted advertising (not just here on 2o2p), fits in with the rest of Media Crumb and will help you create a rocking gaming community.
Long story short isn't the main problem (the initial problem that spawned this discussion) generating new members to 2o2p and retaining them? Is there any way to tell what the turnover rate on new members is? Say like how many members joined in the 2nd quarter this year and how many of those have 3 or less posts?
The whole thought of opening up clans and having people posting publicly was to create a more active place that would make new members stick. What if that isn't the problem? What if the problem is attracting new members first and foremost? How would taking the 800+ members of 2o4F or our 75 members of 2o2phalo and throwing them into the main forums attract new people to the site?
In my eyes clans would help member retention in the long run. I always hear a lot of clannies past and present say "I wouldn't be playing anymore if it wasn't for this clan".
Maybe the real problem is getting them here in the first place.
Its defiantly not getting them. We get the same amount of people as we normally have (about 40 or more a month). Realistically though, once they get here, who are they going to talk to? This seems to be the question that can't be answered by a more closed off group. I mean sure, if they're into Halo they might come across deeps threads and now that his clanless playdate is a success they could even get to play, but that doesn't really support the closed clan ideal.
Also, I think there seems to be this ideal that I have some hard-on to get rid of clans or open them up. I've heard from even my closest friends in Profantiy and 2o2p OG a similar sentiment. But realistically, is it more likely I've looked at all the problems and ways to fix things or that I've just made a choice to blow up everything cause I'm bored and hate peoples feelings.
I want this place to succeed, business or not. I want people to be happy. I want to see it grow. If I thought for a second that we had trouble gaining new members I don't think this thread would even exist. However, I will state I don't think its CLANs that are the only problem. For whatever reason it keeps getting misinterpreted as my position. Instead, I think the model is what is broken. In its' simplest form, if people see that there is content and have ACCESS to that content they will be much more likely to engage in conversation and stay.
The part in bold is getting to the root of the issue.
If you think it's the model that's the problem, then there's a place to start. Primarily, in what way do you find the current model is insufficient? What are the goals and objectives you have in mind? A certain retention rate on new members past a certain number of weeks? (as a metric, it's influenced by too many variables on it's own to be worth much - it's something that would sort itself out if other metrics are improved) A certain number of new posts / contect being created that meets a certain level of quality (ie, not spam or post whoring) in a given time frame?
Well, content is created by what are essentially volunteers, and as a model, it's a financially viable one. It would get expensive quite quickly to pay a group of members to be content creators. But that's essentially what you're after; fortunately, not all rewards are financial.
So then it gets into motivation theory, and how to get volunteers to contribute. The easiest way (and a way that works in any organization, including businesses, associations, clubs, WoW guilds) is by establishing a vision and communicating that vision to your member-base. IE, you want 2o2p to be the best place on the internet for gamers over 25 to come and enjoy the recreation of gaming with other gamers with similar life experiences, based on the fact that at 25 or over people are generally at a similar stage of the lifecycle curve. The "best" is a relative term, so it may require a bit more explicit definition. While I think I get what you mean by virtue of having been a member since, what, 2005(?) and in that way we share a mental model of 2o2p based on history, I'm trying to illustrate the importance of putting your vision down, in words, and communicating it to everyone, in an explicit and clear manner. Whether it's a business or a hobby, all organizations (generic groups of people interacting with one another) tend to be more motivated when they're working towards a common goal and understand what the shared vision / values are. Kind of the like "Don't be a dick" policy in the ToS.
Start there, with a vision, communicate it, and the rest becomes much easier.
What about those Xbox dashboard promoted events that 2old2play has done in the past. I participated in one for Gears 2 and that was a hell of a lot of fun and brought quite an influx of traffic to the site. I recall an episode of TNT and 2o2type where Doodi and Smooth said they did one for Halo.
How much does it cost to get on the "Events" tab in the Xbox dashboard?
Maybe I'm suggesting this too early at this point in the discussion.
Here's my opinion. If you kill the clans, there will be a huge backlash. Sure, you want overall site participation but killing the clans won't fix that. You are risking alienating and running off long time members on the gamble that they will just fold into Off Topic and bring in more new traffic. In truth, most will leave the site from feeling betrayed or they'll look elsewhere for a private area to connect with those they are closest to.
I share stuff in the clan forum with those I'm most familiar with that I would never post in Off Topic. I also enjoy the relative privacy of our clan forum. I can say that one the the biggest aggravation is only seeing the forums that you are granted access to. Bring back the separate "Clan Forums" page and make it easy to find from the homepage. When new people show up now, they have to look for site clans and try to search out what they want. If they could go to a separate page and see a list of clans as well as the post count, it would give them a feeling of who is active and who isn't. It would benefit the clans and keep those longtime members that have been here for years
Personally, I believe if you kill the clans, you kill the site. Period. V2 may have seemed more complicated but people liked it and were comfortable with it. V3 may be better from a creator/admin perspective but, from a user perspective, it's just not as user friendly. Little things like smileys make a difference.
I'll also throw in that the biggest complaint I've heard within my clan is that loyal users have been ignored for the sake of bringing in new blood. Those "old hats" feel aggravated that their voices aren't being heard after years of loyalty. In this case, whether or not it's true, that's the perception.