Your between a rock and a hard place Doodi, people will focus on the one thing that is important to them (generalizing) in this case it is clan privacy. But that is not really the problem. There are so many forums it is bewildering and like the Race one on the whole quiet and seemingly inactive. Okay I think we have a solution for the race genre, an open forum that can contain a shop window for the Forza group while giving a home for PC Race Sims, we have talked about it, and I look forward to seeing born and grow.
The other genres I think need the same, a single coherent place where folk looking for Halo, COD etc. can see all the clans associated with that genre. Another shop window for the various groups. Deep and folk like him hosting open events should have a home that is easy to find.
So instead of hunting through dozens of inactive looking threads folk can quickly see the wealth of active groups and gaming fun available. Targeted rather than the scatter gun approach the site has now. If a clan leaves its shop window bare they will lose out to those actively making themselves attractive to new members. Competition could be a catalyst for more public activity here.
It should be clear on arrival at the front page, here is a place you can find a home, somewhere here there is a place full of people that game just like you. The Home page gives no hint of the main activity here, actually gaming, talking about gaming and the community of communities. There is no mission statement, what we as members will do for you, the new arrival. That should be shouted from the rooftops.
A family friendly area or group, it has been pointed out as we are older gamers many have children so while others want and should have kid free gaming, those that want their kids to be able to play with them can. They are after all the future members. (me? I am hardcore kid free in case anyone is wondering)
So just some thoughts on the bigger picture from me for a change, I'm sure it all be stuff you and the rest of the inner circle are already discussing but it makes a change from banging on about 2O4F
I joined the site because I wanted to find like minded people to game with. I could only fit 100 people on my FL so a clan seemed to coincide with that and I asked to join one. I have since been apart of several and enjoyed it a lot.
I have been with the site almost since it's inception. I didn't come here to help the site. I came here for me. selfish as it may seem, it is my opinion and I don't care what anyone thinks of it.
I posted, I read and I laughed a lot. Most of my best experiences with the site was within the clan 'walls' as it was put. Even though I have been a part of several clans.
I got to know those people, I became comfortable expressing myself and posting semi personal material. I would not do that in an open forum. Take away that ability and I will just find it somwhere else. I am not going to fight anyone for the right or rant and rave about whatever you decide. I am not even going to read all the posts in this thread because i just dont care.
Admins want the site to grow, that is commendable. good luck to you.
I am not sure how i want to word it, so this may come out really wrong. I don't like being told I have to conform. When the admins say that me posting in the main forums helps the site more, so they want to take away our clans, that sounds to me like you are making me conform to your way of thinking. I don't agree with that.
if you don't like that I do not contribute enough, then so be it. I thought the forum was a place I could come and read about shit whether in the public forums or clan forums and respond if i wanted to. I did not think that I had to contribute to the good of the site with posts.
I joined the site because I wanted to find like minded people to game with. I could only fit 100 people on my FL so a clan seemed to coincide with that and I asked to join one. I have since been apart of several and enjoyed it a lot.
I have been with the site almost since it's inception. I didn't come here to help the site. I came here for me. selfish as it may seem, it is my opinion and I don't care what anyone thinks of it.
I posted, I read and I laughed a lot. Most of my best experiences with the site was within the clan 'walls' as it was put. Even though I have been a part of several clans.
I got to know those people, I became comfortable expressing myself and posting semi personal material. I would not do that in an open forum. Take away that ability and I will just find it somwhere else. I am not going to fight anyone for the right or rant and rave about whatever you decide. I am not even going to read all the posts in this thread because i just dont care.
Admins want the site to grow, that is commendable. good luck to you.
I am not sure how i want to word it, so this may come out really wrong. I don't like being told I have to conform. When the admins say that me posting in the main forums helps the site more, so they want to take away our clans, that sounds to me like you are making me conform to your way of thinking. I don't agree with that.
if you don't like that I do not contribute enough, then so be it. I thought the forum was a place I could come and read about shit whether in the public forums or clan forums and respond if i wanted to. I did not think that I had to contribute to the good of the site with posts.
As far as case study material would go, I'd put this in an appendix to a case as trap to anyone trying to solve the issues. It's perfectly succinct, honest, and demonstrates the trap of trying to solve an issue without getting to the root cause.
One, as Doodi's pointed out a few times already, he doesn't feel clans are the problem; they merely exascerbate the issue that's there; content creation in the public areas of the forums. Clans are a passionate issue, and each person has their own point of view, coloured by their own personal experience, and usually the presentation of solutions is sided to conform to how that individual views the clan issue.
Honestly, I share Bertt's view. I joined 2o2p back when I wanted to find a Halo 2 clan of like-minded invdividuals as my Xbox Live experience thereto was one of yelling Timmies and general unpleasantness. The now famous Timmy post on Bungie lead me here, I read the newcomers section and threads, found a clan I was interetested in based on it's description and followed the application procedure they wrote. A short time later I was gaming with Smoke, Cube and Pythonista and had the best time in Halo2 I'd ever had up to that point. And it only got better from there.
Clans are a natural progression of human behaviour. Many people just want a group of people to hang out with, and 100 is far more manageable than 10,000. (I'd guess by a factor of 100 )
Content turnover is the issue, exacerbated by people hanging out in clans, but as the small group dynamic is what a number of people likely want, it's a moot point to consider clans at all.
Also, it'll likely just keep derailing any efforts at solving the primary issue, and is itself divisive. It's a pitfall of change management and growth in general: addressing symptoms and aggravating factors as opposed to the root cause.
So, I think it's safe say (mainly because Doodi has said it's not his intent) that clans won't be shuttered and everyone forced out into the public. Much panic has been made, but it's not the most likely outcome, as it's not an outcome at all. It won't solve the issue in the long term. Stop worrying about clans. And not everyone needs to contribute. I'm willing to bet that the 20/80 rule applies to 2o2p: 20% of the members create 80% of the content. It's rule for a reason; because within reasonable variance, it's true in any organizational capacity. (Hence, it's a bet I'm willing to make, without even looking at the posting, blogging and news history)
But Bertt's a prime example of why 2o2p is great. The question isn't how to get people out of clans, it's how to support clans so that others can have an experience hereto as great as Bertt's. The primary way is through attraction and retention of new members, to replace natural attrition of members due to "real-life" and outside demands on leisure time, while paradoxially having enough people contribute outside of clans to attract and retain those members.
Which is where my previous post on motivating what are essentially volunteers to a cause: making 2o2p the best damned gaming community for adult gamers.
I joined the site because I wanted to find like minded people to game with. I could only fit 100 people on my FL so a clan seemed to coincide with that and I asked to join one. I have since been apart of several and enjoyed it a lot.
I have been with the site almost since it's inception. I didn't come here to help the site. I came here for me. selfish as it may seem, it is my opinion and I don't care what anyone thinks of it.
I posted, I read and I laughed a lot. Most of my best experiences with the site was within the clan 'walls' as it was put. Even though I have been a part of several clans.
I got to know those people, I became comfortable expressing myself and posting semi personal material. I would not do that in an open forum. Take away that ability and I will just find it somwhere else. I am not going to fight anyone for the right or rant and rave about whatever you decide. I am not even going to read all the posts in this thread because i just dont care.
Admins want the site to grow, that is commendable. good luck to you.
I am not sure how i want to word it, so this may come out really wrong. I don't like being told I have to conform. When the admins say that me posting in the main forums helps the site more, so they want to take away our clans, that sounds to me like you are making me conform to your way of thinking. I don't agree with that.
if you don't like that I do not contribute enough, then so be it. I thought the forum was a place I could come and read about shit whether in the public forums or clan forums and respond if i wanted to. I did not think that I had to contribute to the good of the site with posts.
As far as case study material would go, I'd put this in an appendix to a case as trap to anyone trying to solve the issues. It's perfectly succinct, honest, and demonstrates the trap of trying to solve an issue without getting to the root cause.
One, as Doodi's pointed out a few times already, he doesn't feel clans are the problem; they merely exascerbate the issue that's there; content creation in the public areas of the forums. Clans are a passionate issue, and each person has their own point of view, coloured by their own personal experience, and usually the presentation of solutions is sided to conform to how that individual views the clan issue.
Honestly, I share Bertt's view. I joined 2o2p back when I wanted to find a Halo 2 clan of like-minded invdividuals as my Xbox Live experience thereto was one of yelling Timmies and general unpleasantness. The now famous Timmy post on Bungie lead me here, I read the newcomers section and threads, found a clan I was interetested in based on it's description and followed the application procedure they wrote. A short time later I was gaming with Smoke, Cube and Pythonista and had the best time in Halo2 I'd ever had up to that point. And it only got better from there.
Clans are a natural progression of human behaviour. Many people just want a group of people to hang out with, and 100 is far more manageable than 10,000. (I'd guess by a factor of 100 )
Content turnover is the issue, exacerbated by people hanging out in clans, but as the small group dynamic is what a number of people likely want, it's a moot point to consider clans at all.
Also, it'll likely just keep derailing any efforts at solving the primary issue, and is itself divisive. It's a pitfall of change management and growth in general: addressing symptoms and aggravating factors as opposed to the root cause.
So, I think it's safe say (mainly because Doodi has said it's not his intent) that clans won't be shuttered and everyone forced out into the public. Much panic has been made, but it's not the most likely outcome, as it's not an outcome at all. It won't solve the issue in the long term. Stop worrying about clans. And not everyone needs to contribute. I'm willing to bet that the 20/80 rule applies to 2o2p: 20% of the members create 80% of the content. It's rule for a reason; because within reasonable variance, it's true in any organizational capacity. (Hence, it's a bet I'm willing to make, without even looking at the posting, blogging and news history)
But Bertt's a prime example of why 2o2p is great. The question isn't how to get people out of clans, it's how to support clans so that others can have an experience hereto as great as Bertt's. The primary way is through attraction and retention of new members, to replace natural attrition of members due to "real-life" and outside demands on leisure time, while paradoxially having enough people contribute outside of clans to attract and retain those members.
Which is where my previous post on motivating what are essentially volunteers to a cause: making 2o2p the best damned gaming community for adult gamers.
Ok. From this point on no one needs to read any further because NorthernPlato finally has it all laid out. READ THIS POST. I MEAN IT.
Maybe it will take hearing it from someone other then me, but I'll say it again and hopefully for a final time
1) I DO NOT THINK CLANS ARE THE PROBLEM.
and again
2) I WILL NOT REMOVED CLANS FROM 2o2p
For some reason that isn't getting across and a lot of the discussion is getting lost on useless what ifs. I ask that people really read my posts for more insight into the problem. Webmonkey, Wam, Walla, and a few other seem to at least understand the problem, even if they don't agree with my ideas.
I'm going to sound like a broken record here but the MODEL is what is broken not the clan. I don't feel the need to punish someone for making friends or wanting to talk in private. In fact, you can blame me for being such good friends with your clan in the first place. After all, it was my idea to make clans private when 2o2p started growing.
However, all this talk doesn't help if we don't look at the issues at hand. Assuming attrition is a constant, which it is, how do we sustain the model with what we have. New people need to see content to know the site isn't dead. New blood is the thing that keeps clans active. So how do we resolve these two issues? Do we rely on clans to recruit their own members outside of the site at a fairly low rate? What are some good options while maintaining the current attrition rates and closed off feel of the site? This is the discussion we should be having. Remember, I want the site to succeed.
I'm no expert on the site or these matters really, but I can give you my personal experience.
I'm not able to post at work generally, and my evenings are filled with wife, dogs, and then some halo. My main interest was finding people closer to my age to play with. This is a way to be social and replaces mostly crappy tv watching for me.
I know when I first posted, nothing really came from it and it was awkward for me to involve myself in the discussions which people who obviously knew each other were having. Before abandoning the site, I applied to 2old2playhalo and really had fun during the trial period. From there on I was hooked to the clan. I honestly don't spend a lot of time digging out news, wtc, etc, on the games and for general halo discussion I have some opinions on items like the August playlist update, but not super verbose opinions.
So anyways, the main thing that kept me here was the immediate attention, friending, and inclusion when I joined a clan. Is there a way to capture that successful model in the general population? Assign new posters to different clans/members to socialize with, or something like that? I think the key is to have new members immediately feel welcome and see that welcome when they get on live as well.
I know when I first posted, nothing really came from it and it was awkward for me to involve myself in the discussions which people who obviously knew each other were having.
That's the part I dont understand. It's the job of every member to make a new member feel welcome when they join the site. I have no problem with clans and think they are great for discussing things with friends that you may not want to discuss on a more public forum. But in my opinion Doodi doesn't want to take that away. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet 75% of "clan talk" could be done in the public forum. if you're discussing a new game coming out, or giving your thoughts on a game that just came out, or whatever. If that topic was in the main forum it would boost conversation in general and give new people something to join in and hopefully find some people to bond with and game with. When you post up in your clan that you want to play COD/Halo/Barbie adventures/whatever tonight, post it up in the forum related to that game as well. Maybe there's a dood just like you when you started that feels like he can't find anybody to play with or talk to.
I'm a member on several other forums; most of them mountain bike related. None of them have this problem. There are no closed doors where people can hide or where new people can't see what's being posted. It's a free for all and it works great. Sure, people butt heads, but most of the time it goes damn smooth. I've just jumped into several of them not knowing anybody and I've came out with tons of new friends that i get up and ride with regularly.
I know when I first posted, nothing really came from it and it was awkward for me to involve myself in the discussions which people who obviously knew each other were having.
This +1000. We have had the exact same issue in our clan forum before. In fact, at least one clan was formed from former members becasue they felt that they weren't part of the group even after they'd been in the clan for a YEAR! Unfortunately, this is not a solvable problem. The beauty of friends is that you develop a shorthand based upon shared experiences. Newcomers have to be willing to go through a period where they don't get every joke or reference, where they might not feel like one of the cool kids for a period of time, and that's actually a lot to ask.
Want to know how you can mitigate it though? When someone is new, simply quote them and reply. Frequently. Deceptively simple. it still works on me today, in this very thread. I've been quoted a couple of times in this thread and each time it makes me think, "Someone read my post - yay!"
So, one problem at a time, but once we figure out how to get folks to post more in the main forums, the next step is try to make new people feel welcome, and you do that by making them feel like they are being heard, and, even better, actually hearing them.
And then the next step (deep breath) is to not immediately recruit them into your clan. I'm not saying don't get folks into clans, but when I used to troll the new in town froum, most of the time, the first clan someone played with is the clan they joined and then they disappeared forever into their clan forum. I know this because I recruited plenty of folks myself. I'm not sure how you solve that, because we all acknowledge that the clan is what has kept the site going and yet, it's also what is stifling the growth of new members.
However I think that THIS is where the mixer idea becomes useful. Start having new member mixer nights, mobilize the clans to run some rooms and encourage new members to bounce into a few different rooms and play with a few different clans. Might mean changing games, so if they're a one trick pony, then maybe they're going to find their clan that way anyway, but if they play mulitple games, then they could meet a variety of folks. or everyone coudl agree to play the same game for a night, so that the only difference is the company they're playing with.
I'm not saying they could make decision froma couple of games with a group, but maybe then they get invited to all the clans they played with and they hang out a bit in the forum too. Then they, and the clan, both can decide if there's a good fit or not. Either way, they've met folks from several clans, and if we all participate in the new member mixer thread, that MIGHT bring about some increase in overall main forum usage because new members will start out posting there and stay there for a bit before disappearing into a clan and if we want to recruit them into our clan, then we'll have to stay active in that thread too.
Fuck doodi...I've read all the pages here and your blogs and hung out with you multiple times (once for 5 straight days with only a few showers) and it is strikingly clear to me that you really hate clans...y u hate da clanz??? You're a gaming socialist...
But on an unrelated note, it seems to me from the outside that the majority of people that try to get involved here lately end up with 2oldshoot, 2old2play Halo, and 2old4Forza. Is there a model for success that can be copied there?
want there a discussion last fall about new members? i seem to recall a few keypoints... make membership an application process [no flames please just recalling public discussions] AND assign new members a site vet to help them learn their way around town. ideally, the assistant would be the member that brought them to the site.
Doodi is stating we still get the monthly influx of new members. but i see that the retention issue remains and no site mentors have been utilized. what stopped/prevented this part of the idea?
i know im with the 'if the topics are great, they will post' camp. but craming forms together doesnt help that at all. maybe a little love up front is all it takes for newbies to find their favorite neighborhood.
a real, anonymous, impartial survey might REALLY help decide things.
Making posting in the main forums mandatory? Don't know what numbers would be suitable but I honestly don't think it's too much to ask from your members. We have it in our clan forum. Our intelligent overlords understood that if people only lurk and don't post the clan will die. And it works! So...don't post and you're out might be a solution.
I'm under the impression you're not trying to create the biggest site out there with the most members. Therefore, a smaller community (because you would loose some that would think the idea of forced posting would be something outrageous) with really active members would be the way to go.
Just a thought...
Ps. How many of our existing members are active? Posting I mean. Just curious.
Making posting in the main forums mandatory? Don't know what numbers would be suitable but I honestly don't think it's too much to ask from your members. We have it in our clan forum. Our intelligent overlords understood that if people only lurk and don't post the clan will die. And it works! So...don't post and you're out might be a solution.
I'm under the impression you're not trying to create the biggest site out there with the most members. Therefore, a smaller community (because you would loose some that would think the idea of forced posting would be something outrageous) with really active members would be the way to go.
Just a thought...
Ps. How many of our existing members are active? Posting I mean. Just curious.
I'm not as eloquint nor do I have the vocabulary as most of you do so please be patient with me.
Let me also preface this by saying, I am only typing these thoughts based on my own experience as a member and mod with 2old2shoot. I am in no way implying we are better then any other clan or group and we are certainly not holier then thou!!!!
I dont know if we qualify as "successful" in Shoot, as Fade said, but I know we do several things that folks are suggesting in this thread. We "ask" our members to continue to be active in the Main forums. We ask and remind often. We dont ask for a lot. Pick a thread, own it. Attempt to start a conversation with someone other then Shoot. Not a very talkative individual?? OK, how bout just a small/short welcome aboard post to a new member. WE feel it benefits the clan and dare I say the site as a whole.
Another reason for our "success" is what Webmonkey speaks of. We genuinely try and make a new guy feel welcome. We reply back, quote text etc...and listen. I am with Webmonkey and still feel the same way as well when a post is quoted "wow, it was read and heard" Not everyone ends up staying, and thats ok. Not everyone is the same and at least we can look in the mirror and say "we tried". When they leave or we have issues within the clan, it is actually discussed amongst the mods and depending on the situation the clan as a whole. When we scrub our member list for activity, each individual thats due to be dropped gets several PM's. Why? Cause shit and real life happens. We dont always know the whys of why someone is inactive. Benefit of the doubt is key.
Mods are active and we have a few staff members assigned as noob liaisons/sponsors which was suggested. Soon as one joins, they are told to shoot FRs out to these folks. Instant involvement=a feeling of belonging, team and fun. Even though shoot is a clan, I dont believe we feel as "private" or "closed"as other clans on the site here. We have our own area and we enjoy that piece of the pie. But I think we are more willing to share that piece of pie with others outside of our dark corner.
Also, mixers I feel are successful. Short term and long term. Maybe not on a huge grand scale but they work. I have several folks on my friends list from other clans due to mixers. Do we play all the time?? No, but occationally we due. And it is always refreshing when someone, not from our clan, joins in on the shinanigans and helps kick timmies ass. Often time you(I) can learn from another clans or individuals play style. Oh, and mixers are a whole hell a lot of fun too!!
Several of us are part of other gaming sites i.e. ubisoft, CoD etc...and sport 2o2p on sigs there. How many have other gaming related websites they belong to?? Have a sig? Pimp 2o2p externally!! Never know who might see it!
I also agree with the 80/20 statement. It is the 20% generating 80% of posts/trafic. I see the same names all the time. How do we fix it?? IDK. Incentives?? My personal incentive to being active is to continue to have a healthy viable site that the family I have here can continue to migrate to and enjoy. A site where I can come to vent, brag or boob at fellow gamers/friends who are of the the general same age and life experiences. I can get advice or be told to STFU. Do I agree with everybody?? Absolutely not!! But I often find things I have not considered brought up by someone else. Just like this thread!!
Here's another incentive...we have a huge niche community here. A place for gamers 25 and older. We have individuals running it because of their passion, not because it's their business. We are proud of that right?? Dont we as members owe the site a bit of loyalty?? Should we not take care of something because it has taken care of us? Why is that not incentive enough to step out of our dark little corners and pitch in?? Maybe that's where I'm not understanding the disconnect or lack of traffic/volunteerism. I hear folks speak of pride of belonging yet are unwilling to come out and manifest it to fellow members and new guys publicly. Bottom line, it takes effort on EVERYONES part to be a successful family.
It would be nice to have the clan forums in with their game forum. So you would go to the Halo forums and there would be a sub-tab for 2old2playhalo. You can make it visable, but still private. Having everything in one area may help with people posting in general forum of there favorite game when its just a simple click away. It would also be nice for new memebers to see what clans maybe right for them in one place and there could be a tab with just general info on clans and what they expect from members and how to join. It took me forever to make the just to a clan because of lack of info. I didn't want to jump into anything without knowing want I getting into.
I think you guys do a really good job here. I really don't know why you guys get so much grief you would think your name was Bill Gates. I'm glad sites like this exist because I played with Timmys for the first 2 years I was on Live and it sucked so bad.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
+1
good idea spidey
Indeed. Come to think about it, a couple of sites I visit has a list on the front page of hot topics at the moment with links. There's between 5-10 hot topics to choose from. It's hard not to click on one if it sparks an interest which it usually does.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
+1
good idea spidey
Indeed. Come to think about it, a couple of sites I visit has a list on the front page of hot topics at the moment with links. There's between 5-10 hot topics to choose from. It's hard not to click on one if it sparks an interest which it usually does.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
+1
good idea spidey
Indeed. Come to think about it, a couple of sites I visit has a list on the front page of hot topics at the moment with links. There's between 5-10 hot topics to choose from. It's hard not to click on one if it sparks an interest which it usually does.
Great idea Spidey.
Definitely a good idea. I know I would be FAR more likely to visit other forums on the site if I had a convenient and unobtrusive tool that shouted out about them. Reminds me of the blog banner at the top of the site page; I would never visit any blogs if it weren't for that banner giving me a quick and convenient way to peruse a few of them.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
I hope this can be done. I suggested a "hot topic" bar to run under the blog bar when they were gathering the wish list for v3, and it didn't get much traction. But I was looking for the most popular threads vs the latest threads, so this might be less difficult to do. i hope this one is possible because that would be REALLY helpful I think.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
Fantastic Idea. Done. You'll see topics with the most view/comments per day.
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
Fantastic Idea. Done. You'll see topics with the most view/comments per day.
Loving the Hot Forum topic box on the right
Would it be possable to let admins have a Topic in a clan appear there if they choose to. But non club members could only see and respond to that one topic?
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
Fantastic Idea. Done. You'll see topics with the most view/comments per day.
Thanks!
Can I make a request? If it's possible, can the link to the topic take you to the newest post in the thread the same as it does when you go to that particular forum and click "View x New"?
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
Fantastic Idea. Done. You'll see topics with the most view/comments per day.
Well done sir. This will also give everyone a "main street" profile of what things are like, and quickly.
Your between a rock and a hard place Doodi, people will focus on the one thing that is important to them (generalizing) in this case it is clan privacy. But that is not really the problem. There are so many forums it is bewildering and like the Race one on the whole quiet and seemingly inactive. Okay I think we have a solution for the race genre, an open forum that can contain a shop window for the Forza group while giving a home for PC Race Sims, we have talked about it, and I look forward to seeing born and grow.
The other genres I think need the same, a single coherent place where folk looking for Halo, COD etc. can see all the clans associated with that genre. Another shop window for the various groups. Deep and folk like him hosting open events should have a home that is easy to find.
So instead of hunting through dozens of inactive looking threads folk can quickly see the wealth of active groups and gaming fun available. Targeted rather than the scatter gun approach the site has now. If a clan leaves its shop window bare they will lose out to those actively making themselves attractive to new members. Competition could be a catalyst for more public activity here.
It should be clear on arrival at the front page, here is a place you can find a home, somewhere here there is a place full of people that game just like you. The Home page gives no hint of the main activity here, actually gaming, talking about gaming and the community of communities. There is no mission statement, what we as members will do for you, the new arrival. That should be shouted from the rooftops.
A family friendly area or group, it has been pointed out as we are older gamers many have children so while others want and should have kid free gaming, those that want their kids to be able to play with them can. They are after all the future members. (me? I am hardcore kid free in case anyone is wondering)
So just some thoughts on the bigger picture from me for a change, I'm sure it all be stuff you and the rest of the inner circle are already discussing but it makes a change from banging on about 2O4F
your site, your perogative.
I joined the site because I wanted to find like minded people to game with. I could only fit 100 people on my FL so a clan seemed to coincide with that and I asked to join one. I have since been apart of several and enjoyed it a lot.
I have been with the site almost since it's inception. I didn't come here to help the site. I came here for me. selfish as it may seem, it is my opinion and I don't care what anyone thinks of it.
I posted, I read and I laughed a lot. Most of my best experiences with the site was within the clan 'walls' as it was put. Even though I have been a part of several clans.
I got to know those people, I became comfortable expressing myself and posting semi personal material. I would not do that in an open forum. Take away that ability and I will just find it somwhere else. I am not going to fight anyone for the right or rant and rave about whatever you decide. I am not even going to read all the posts in this thread because i just dont care.
Admins want the site to grow, that is commendable. good luck to you.
I am not sure how i want to word it, so this may come out really wrong. I don't like being told I have to conform. When the admins say that me posting in the main forums helps the site more, so they want to take away our clans, that sounds to me like you are making me conform to your way of thinking. I don't agree with that.
if you don't like that I do not contribute enough, then so be it. I thought the forum was a place I could come and read about shit whether in the public forums or clan forums and respond if i wanted to. I did not think that I had to contribute to the good of the site with posts.
As far as case study material would go, I'd put this in an appendix to a case as trap to anyone trying to solve the issues. It's perfectly succinct, honest, and demonstrates the trap of trying to solve an issue without getting to the root cause.
One, as Doodi's pointed out a few times already, he doesn't feel clans are the problem; they merely exascerbate the issue that's there; content creation in the public areas of the forums. Clans are a passionate issue, and each person has their own point of view, coloured by their own personal experience, and usually the presentation of solutions is sided to conform to how that individual views the clan issue.
Honestly, I share Bertt's view. I joined 2o2p back when I wanted to find a Halo 2 clan of like-minded invdividuals as my Xbox Live experience thereto was one of yelling Timmies and general unpleasantness. The now famous Timmy post on Bungie lead me here, I read the newcomers section and threads, found a clan I was interetested in based on it's description and followed the application procedure they wrote. A short time later I was gaming with Smoke, Cube and Pythonista and had the best time in Halo2 I'd ever had up to that point. And it only got better from there.
Clans are a natural progression of human behaviour. Many people just want a group of people to hang out with, and 100 is far more manageable than 10,000. (I'd guess by a factor of 100.gif "22")
)
Content turnover is the issue, exacerbated by people hanging out in clans, but as the small group dynamic is what a number of people likely want, it's a moot point to consider clans at all.
Also, it'll likely just keep derailing any efforts at solving the primary issue, and is itself divisive. It's a pitfall of change management and growth in general: addressing symptoms and aggravating factors as opposed to the root cause.
So, I think it's safe say (mainly because Doodi has said it's not his intent) that clans won't be shuttered and everyone forced out into the public. Much panic has been made, but it's not the most likely outcome, as it's not an outcome at all. It won't solve the issue in the long term. Stop worrying about clans. And not everyone needs to contribute. I'm willing to bet that the 20/80 rule applies to 2o2p: 20% of the members create 80% of the content. It's rule for a reason; because within reasonable variance, it's true in any organizational capacity. (Hence, it's a bet I'm willing to make, without even looking at the posting, blogging and news history)
But Bertt's a prime example of why 2o2p is great. The question isn't how to get people out of clans, it's how to support clans so that others can have an experience hereto as great as Bertt's. The primary way is through attraction and retention of new members, to replace natural attrition of members due to "real-life" and outside demands on leisure time, while paradoxially having enough people contribute outside of clans to attract and retain those members.
Which is where my previous post on motivating what are essentially volunteers to a cause: making 2o2p the best damned gaming community for adult gamers.
Ok. From this point on no one needs to read any further because NorthernPlato finally has it all laid out. READ THIS POST. I MEAN IT.
Maybe it will take hearing it from someone other then me, but I'll say it again and hopefully for a final time
1) I DO NOT THINK CLANS ARE THE PROBLEM.
and again
2) I WILL NOT REMOVED CLANS FROM 2o2p
For some reason that isn't getting across and a lot of the discussion is getting lost on useless what ifs. I ask that people really read my posts for more insight into the problem. Webmonkey, Wam, Walla, and a few other seem to at least understand the problem, even if they don't agree with my ideas.
I'm going to sound like a broken record here but the MODEL is what is broken not the clan. I don't feel the need to punish someone for making friends or wanting to talk in private. In fact, you can blame me for being such good friends with your clan in the first place. After all, it was my idea to make clans private when 2o2p started growing.
However, all this talk doesn't help if we don't look at the issues at hand. Assuming attrition is a constant, which it is, how do we sustain the model with what we have. New people need to see content to know the site isn't dead. New blood is the thing that keeps clans active. So how do we resolve these two issues? Do we rely on clans to recruit their own members outside of the site at a fairly low rate? What are some good options while maintaining the current attrition rates and closed off feel of the site? This is the discussion we should be having. Remember, I want the site to succeed.
I'm no expert on the site or these matters really, but I can give you my personal experience.
I'm not able to post at work generally, and my evenings are filled with wife, dogs, and then some halo. My main interest was finding people closer to my age to play with. This is a way to be social and replaces mostly crappy tv watching for me.
I know when I first posted, nothing really came from it and it was awkward for me to involve myself in the discussions which people who obviously knew each other were having. Before abandoning the site, I applied to 2old2playhalo and really had fun during the trial period. From there on I was hooked to the clan. I honestly don't spend a lot of time digging out news, wtc, etc, on the games and for general halo discussion I have some opinions on items like the August playlist update, but not super verbose opinions.
So anyways, the main thing that kept me here was the immediate attention, friending, and inclusion when I joined a clan. Is there a way to capture that successful model in the general population? Assign new posters to different clans/members to socialize with, or something like that? I think the key is to have new members immediately feel welcome and see that welcome when they get on live as well.
That's the part I dont understand. It's the job of every member to make a new member feel welcome when they join the site. I have no problem with clans and think they are great for discussing things with friends that you may not want to discuss on a more public forum. But in my opinion Doodi doesn't want to take that away. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet 75% of "clan talk" could be done in the public forum. if you're discussing a new game coming out, or giving your thoughts on a game that just came out, or whatever. If that topic was in the main forum it would boost conversation in general and give new people something to join in and hopefully find some people to bond with and game with. When you post up in your clan that you want to play COD/Halo/Barbie adventures/whatever tonight, post it up in the forum related to that game as well. Maybe there's a dood just like you when you started that feels like he can't find anybody to play with or talk to.
I'm a member on several other forums; most of them mountain bike related. None of them have this problem. There are no closed doors where people can hide or where new people can't see what's being posted. It's a free for all and it works great. Sure, people butt heads, but most of the time it goes damn smooth. I've just jumped into several of them not knowing anybody and I've came out with tons of new friends that i get up and ride with regularly.
This +1000. We have had the exact same issue in our clan forum before. In fact, at least one clan was formed from former members becasue they felt that they weren't part of the group even after they'd been in the clan for a YEAR! Unfortunately, this is not a solvable problem. The beauty of friends is that you develop a shorthand based upon shared experiences. Newcomers have to be willing to go through a period where they don't get every joke or reference, where they might not feel like one of the cool kids for a period of time, and that's actually a lot to ask.
Want to know how you can mitigate it though? When someone is new, simply quote them and reply. Frequently. Deceptively simple. it still works on me today, in this very thread. I've been quoted a couple of times in this thread and each time it makes me think, "Someone read my post - yay!"
So, one problem at a time, but once we figure out how to get folks to post more in the main forums, the next step is try to make new people feel welcome, and you do that by making them feel like they are being heard, and, even better, actually hearing them.
And then the next step (deep breath) is to not immediately recruit them into your clan. I'm not saying don't get folks into clans, but when I used to troll the new in town froum, most of the time, the first clan someone played with is the clan they joined and then they disappeared forever into their clan forum. I know this because I recruited plenty of folks myself. I'm not sure how you solve that, because we all acknowledge that the clan is what has kept the site going and yet, it's also what is stifling the growth of new members.
However I think that THIS is where the mixer idea becomes useful. Start having new member mixer nights, mobilize the clans to run some rooms and encourage new members to bounce into a few different rooms and play with a few different clans. Might mean changing games, so if they're a one trick pony, then maybe they're going to find their clan that way anyway, but if they play mulitple games, then they could meet a variety of folks. or everyone coudl agree to play the same game for a night, so that the only difference is the company they're playing with.
I'm not saying they could make decision froma couple of games with a group, but maybe then they get invited to all the clans they played with and they hang out a bit in the forum too. Then they, and the clan, both can decide if there's a good fit or not. Either way, they've met folks from several clans, and if we all participate in the new member mixer thread, that MIGHT bring about some increase in overall main forum usage because new members will start out posting there and stay there for a bit before disappearing into a clan and if we want to recruit them into our clan, then we'll have to stay active in that thread too.
I dunno. Tough nut to crack.
Please don't feed his ego.
Fuck doodi...I've read all the pages here and your blogs and hung out with you multiple times (once for 5 straight days with only a few showers) and it is strikingly clear to me that you really hate clans...y u hate da clanz??? You're a gaming socialist...
But on an unrelated note, it seems to me from the outside that the majority of people that try to get involved here lately end up with 2oldshoot, 2old2play Halo, and 2old4Forza. Is there a model for success that can be copied there?
want there a discussion last fall about new members? i seem to recall a few keypoints... make membership an application process [no flames please just recalling public discussions] AND assign new members a site vet to help them learn their way around town. ideally, the assistant would be the member that brought them to the site.
Doodi is stating we still get the monthly influx of new members. but i see that the retention issue remains and no site mentors have been utilized. what stopped/prevented this part of the idea?
i know im with the 'if the topics are great, they will post' camp. but craming forms together doesnt help that at all. maybe a little love up front is all it takes for newbies to find their favorite neighborhood.
a real, anonymous, impartial survey might REALLY help decide things.
Making posting in the main forums mandatory? Don't know what numbers would be suitable but I honestly don't think it's too much to ask from your members. We have it in our clan forum. Our intelligent overlords understood that if people only lurk and don't post the clan will die. And it works! So...don't post and you're out might be a solution.
I'm under the impression you're not trying to create the biggest site out there with the most members. Therefore, a smaller community (because you would loose some that would think the idea of forced posting would be something outrageous) with really active members would be the way to go.
Just a thought...
Ps. How many of our existing members are active? Posting I mean. Just curious.
I'm not as eloquint nor do I have the vocabulary as most of you do so please be patient with me.
Let me also preface this by saying, I am only typing these thoughts based on my own experience as a member and mod with 2old2shoot. I am in no way implying we are better then any other clan or group and we are certainly not holier then thou!!!!
I dont know if we qualify as "successful" in Shoot, as Fade said, but I know we do several things that folks are suggesting in this thread. We "ask" our members to continue to be active in the Main forums. We ask and remind often. We dont ask for a lot. Pick a thread, own it. Attempt to start a conversation with someone other then Shoot. Not a very talkative individual?? OK, how bout just a small/short welcome aboard post to a new member. WE feel it benefits the clan and dare I say the site as a whole.
Another reason for our "success" is what Webmonkey speaks of. We genuinely try and make a new guy feel welcome. We reply back, quote text etc...and listen. I am with Webmonkey and still feel the same way as well when a post is quoted "wow, it was read and heard" Not everyone ends up staying, and thats ok. Not everyone is the same and at least we can look in the mirror and say "we tried". When they leave or we have issues within the clan, it is actually discussed amongst the mods and depending on the situation the clan as a whole. When we scrub our member list for activity, each individual thats due to be dropped gets several PM's. Why? Cause shit and real life happens. We dont always know the whys of why someone is inactive. Benefit of the doubt is key.
Mods are active and we have a few staff members assigned as noob liaisons/sponsors which was suggested. Soon as one joins, they are told to shoot FRs out to these folks. Instant involvement=a feeling of belonging, team and fun.
Even though shoot is a clan, I dont believe we feel as "private" or "closed"as other clans on the site here. We have our own area and we enjoy that piece of the pie. But I think we are more willing to share that piece of pie with others outside of our dark corner.
Also, mixers I feel are successful. Short term and long term. Maybe not on a huge grand scale but they work. I have several folks on my friends list from other clans due to mixers. Do we play all the time?? No, but occationally we due. And it is always refreshing when someone, not from our clan, joins in on the shinanigans and helps kick timmies ass. Often time you(I) can learn from another clans or individuals play style. Oh, and mixers are a whole hell a lot of fun too!!
Several of us are part of other gaming sites i.e. ubisoft, CoD etc...and sport 2o2p on sigs there. How many have other gaming related websites they belong to?? Have a sig? Pimp 2o2p externally!! Never know who might see it!
I also agree with the 80/20 statement. It is the 20% generating 80% of posts/trafic. I see the same names all the time. How do we fix it?? IDK. Incentives?? My personal incentive to being active is to continue to have a healthy viable site that the family I have here can continue to migrate to and enjoy. A site where I can come to vent, brag or boob at fellow gamers/friends who are of the the general same age and life experiences. I can get advice or be told to STFU. Do I agree with everybody?? Absolutely not!! But I often find things I have not considered brought up by someone else. Just like this thread!!
Here's another incentive...we have a huge niche community here. A place for gamers 25 and older. We have individuals running it because of their passion, not because it's their business. We are proud of that right?? Dont we as members owe the site a bit of loyalty?? Should we not take care of something because it has taken care of us? Why is that not incentive enough to step out of our dark little corners and pitch in?? Maybe that's where I'm not understanding the disconnect or lack of traffic/volunteerism. I hear folks speak of pride of belonging yet are unwilling to come out and manifest it to fellow members and new guys publicly. Bottom line, it takes effort on EVERYONES part to be a successful family.
Oh and shoot grows potatoes!
My two cents
Some clans help.
It would be nice to have the clan forums in with their game forum. So you would go to the Halo forums and there would be a sub-tab for 2old2playhalo. You can make it visable, but still private. Having everything in one area may help with people posting in general forum of there favorite game when its just a simple click away. It would also be nice for new memebers to see what clans maybe right for them in one place and there could be a tab with just general info on clans and what they expect from members and how to join. It took me forever to make the just to a clan because of lack of info. I didn't want to jump into anything without knowing want I getting into.
I think you guys do a really good job here. I really don't know why you guys get so much grief you would think your name was Bill Gates. I'm glad sites like this exist because I played with Timmys for the first 2 years I was on Live and it sucked so bad.
This wouldn't work for multi game clans.
I am pretty sure I found the answer to your problem Doodi, just throw topics like this out there every week or so and watch the post come rolling it
oh, and I like pie!
I think I could pretty much keep this going. I charge by the week though. Next weeks topic "Fiat Currency vs. Gold Standard."
And a constructive idea, and this might have been discussed already, but have a feed on the side or somewhere that has the latest posts from the main forums. While people are posting in their clan forum, they might look over and notice a topic that intrest them and can click on the link to the topic and contribute.
+1
good idea spidey
Indeed. Come to think about it, a couple of sites I visit has a list on the front page of hot topics at the moment with links. There's between 5-10 hot topics to choose from. It's hard not to click on one if it sparks an interest which it usually does.
Great idea Spidey.
i told you he wasn't worthless...
Definitely a good idea. I know I would be FAR more likely to visit other forums on the site if I had a convenient and unobtrusive tool that shouted out about them. Reminds me of the blog banner at the top of the site page; I would never visit any blogs if it weren't for that banner giving me a quick and convenient way to peruse a few of them.
+1 Spidey.
I hope this can be done. I suggested a "hot topic" bar to run under the blog bar when they were gathering the wish list for v3, and it didn't get much traction. But I was looking for the most popular threads vs the latest threads, so this might be less difficult to do. i hope this one is possible because that would be REALLY helpful I think.
Fantastic Idea. Done. You'll see topics with the most view/comments per day.
Loving the Hot Forum topic box on the right
Would it be possable to let admins have a Topic in a clan appear there if they choose to. But non club members could only see and respond to that one topic?
Thanks!
Can I make a request? If it's possible, can the link to the topic take you to the newest post in the thread the same as it does when you go to that particular forum and click "View x New"?
Well done sir. This will also give everyone a "main street" profile of what things are like, and quickly.