Do Clans Help - OR - Hinder 2old2play
#1
Thu, 08/09/2012 - 09:53
Do Clans Help - OR - Hinder 2old2play
This was a very active discussion that started in a blog. I thought I would take the initiative to move it here. I will post some of the exchange below so everyone can see the ground that was covered....then it would be great if the discussion continued here since it is relative to everyone.
Enjoy!
http://www.2old2play.com/blog/deepnnn/clanless-halo-2old2play-498355
So I think the gist of it has been moved from blog to this thread.
The more I thought about it...if we remove clans...how will 2old2play be different than any other site? There really isn't a reason to stay here is there? I mean..if you are just going to post everything in open forums and discuss gaming with thousands of other members...why not post in the forums on xbox.com? or EA? or hundreds of other outlets for gaming forums?
Our members will still be 25+. And there's no reason there can't be a sense of community, even if you don't know the most personal details of the person you're responding to.
But do you think that it's possible to "force" people to change their social habits? If we do away with clans...what is more likely to happen?
Those couple active clans here will continue to socialize somewhere else (facebook, twitter, google+, private forum, etc.)
or
Will they completely change their habits and feel compelled to socialize with thousands of others in public?
Plus...IF they do continue to socialize somewhere else...then the site loses the content, volunteer efforts, income those members were providing.
I just fail to see how taking away something somehow changes things for the site as a whole.
This is sort of like being at a party where no one is dancing and everyone is in little groups against the walls. People are suggesting if we take away the walls it will somehow fix everything.
Personally I'd think it would be - "Those couple active clans here will continue to socialize somewhere else (facebook, twitter, google+, private forum, etc.)"
Which IMO is fine. A lot of work has gone into building those things - I want to preserve my clans' have built, too.
This part I have some issue with:
Plus...IF they do continue to socialize somewhere else...then the site loses the content, volunteer efforts, income those members were providing.
If they are only socializing with themselves, what does the site lose short of their thread/post count in a private clan forum?
What you said there implies that folks in clans ONLY post in their respective clan. If that were true than you would be correct but that is not the case for every clan member of the site. Many people do in fact post in public forums here on the site.
I touched a little on this yesteday.
Our "private clan" has generated enough active and involved members to produce at least 4 Site Moderators. Thats a job they did...outside the clan forum...for the benefit of the site...for free.
We have had at least 3 people become either gaming forum or other clan forum moderators
I think we may have actually spawned at least 3 other Clans
Until recently, Deep NNN was a member of our clan and he contributed to the Halo community all over the site
I personally have produced tutorials and videos for the site's use.
I have contributed as a "private clan member" to site content with articles, reviews, and member profiles.
I have contributed as a member of the writing staff to front page articles, reviews, and member profiles
Our private clan has a member CURRENTLY on the writing staff contributing.
By my rough estimate our "private clan" has donated over $7000 to 2old2play over the life of our clan. I would be curious of the real dollar amount) here is what I estimate:
10 members X $25 per month average SCC membership = $250
$250 per month X 24 Months (just an average here.) = $6000
$6000 + $500 from LAN donations (in our early LAN years, we took any extra money left from our LAN party...AND DONATED IT TO THE SITE) = $6500
$6500 + $500 misc. donations and podcast sponsorships = $7000
I would suspect the actual number is higher.
Taxi I know you were a moderator...I'm not sure if you still are. I don't want to speak for my fellow Overlord of 2oldpwn, RogueRedneck, but I would like to use an example other than myself.
Rogue is fiercely loyal to our clan. Because of his job he has to be very careful what he posts on the internet. As such he spends a lot of his time in the Clan forum only.
The culture of our Clan though has never been isolationist. We LOVE our clan...and we have always been cognizent that our little house exists because 2old2play is nice street and neigborhood that gave us a place to build on. We have very close friendships but we are always willing to give back to the site because we love our neighborhood.
We have contributed, significantly I might add, to the site over the years. No, it hasn't been in the form of posting in public. But if all it took to build a great active site was posts, there would be tons of them.
In Rogue's case, he has volunteered to be a moderator...and does try to browse the public forums to donate his time. He donates his time to the writing staff, writing content that goes on the front page. He has donated money to the site as a SCC member.
Selden007 and BlueStiehl have been active on the site Twitter feed and podcasts. I know there have been podcast donations made from our Clan.
I could go on and on. Just because we are clan members doesn't make us less valuable as a site member? People keep talking about "new members". Well you have some site members right here! Many of which have been with the site from the beginning. They have donated money, and time, and resources, and themselves to the cause.
I know for me, the reason I have done things for the site...has nothing to do with the site as a whole. I love my clan and my clan exists because of the site. I am up for anything that cleans up the neighborhood. If you tear the houses down...or force people to stand outside...there really isn't a reason to be here anymore.
There are tons of other sites out there that have better content, better structure, better tools. I like 2old2play because of the quality of the people...and the people exist in clans.
I haven't been active here in a while as my gaming time has diminished, but I agree that it was a lot nicer when the main forums had more chatter. Seems now everybody hides behind their clan walls and doesn't post much. I support Deep and Fire fully in this. Would be nice to see it back to the way it was when I first joined the site.
and I'm pretty sure everybody saw the blog. Not sure why you needed to bring it here other than to try and prove Fire wrong.
Well...nobody looks in the public forums anymore so they probably won't see it here. There are all locked up in the clan forums. :)
I let Fire have the last word. I don't think continuing a conversation that obviously effects the whole site "proves him wrong"
The blog was unreadable and the owner of the blog politely asked that the comments be taken into the forum. Just trying to be accomodating.
Walla again my point I was trying to make escapes you.
I'm not asking for private forums to go away. I am not asking clans to disban and stop having clan nights and private functions together. I am simply saying that clans as a whole need to be mroe active in the public forums and with other members. Not all the time not even weekly but monthly Mixers are a good idea. Asking that clans make a small effort to post more in the public forums for their games of interest is not asking a lot.
You said 2o2pwn cuts inactive members. members are part of clans and clans are part of the 2old2play community, with that logic then Should 2old2play cut clans who are inactive with the rest of the 2old2play community?
You took my points as saying we need to get rid of clans and make everyone play together. your short sighted need to be right clouded your better judgement to understand that wasn't what I was saying. I was simply saying we all as members need to be more publicly active. Public activity attracts and retains new members. Splat is a great example of someone who joined and found a comfy home and is happy but for every 1 splat there are 9 people who join and leave due to forum stagnation. To grow 2o2p needs to attract and retain new members. We do that by everyone and every group being more publicly active, sorry but it is the truth
i didnt see the blog and i dont visit blogs
The fact of the matter is, the numbers show that clan forums, on average, have 200 posts per hour. While the main forums average 40 posts per hour. Clans help the members, but do little for the site
Is posting the only measure of how site members help the site?
I don't post that often. In RL, I am more of a listener than a talker. This trait carries over to site as well. Does this make me a bad site member?
Facts:
I visit the site everyday, usually multiple times.
I read blogs, the main forum and my clan forum.
I listen to 2old2type and Thick & Thin.
I have been in site wide mixers and tournaments.
I used to be a regular in site chat, but work has made that hard for me.
I was a SCC member in V2 and will be one in V3 when it is available.
I have donated to the site LAN even though I have never attended.
I have donated to 2old2type.
I have more posts in my clan forum than I do in the main forum.
Is the last fact the only one that matters?
Honestly speaking, do you think there are more or less of someone as active as you?
To be honest, I don't know. My guess would be less.
My question to you, if a person does the following:
Only posts in the clan forum..
Is an SCC member.
Is this a bad site member?
I think a little context is in order seeing as how a lot of this talk was started in the staff forum and not everyone can see what was talked about.
This isn't about being a bad member because you don't post much in the main forum. This is about site growth and sustaining it to combat normal player drop off. Doodi himself has said the community is failing and a lot of it is due to the clan forum model
The whole context of my post stems from
I don't know anything about posts in staff forums. I am not a staff member, moderator or adminstrator. I am just a site and clan member.
I appreciate what you're doing here walla, but let deeps blog speak for itself. It's there if people want to read it and I don't feel it's right to only selectively pick the posts you find relevant. If people want to read the blog they can figure out the context for themselves. Feel free to keep this discussion open though. It's a great topic. Just try to be nice to each other.
If there is a way you (or a moderator) could move the bulk of that conversation here please delete my posts. I tried to grab all the clan vs. no clan related comments and leave the other stuff out.
It's a heated topic that it seems everyone has strong opinions about and I thought it should continue.
Oh I totally agree. I just don't think the comments need to be moved here. We don't need a mirror'd thread of the same content and if the people want to check it out they can. Plus I want people to see his blog to get an idea of what sparked the conversation in the first place. It's only fair for the sake of context. I added a link to the blog in your first post.
To continue with the topic at hand, I've actually heard a lot of great ideas from staff, writers, and clan leaders in the other forums and maybe that will enter here as well. It's a complex problem to say the least and one that I think affects 2o2p's ability to continue as a site. Have at it.
I'm glad this Topic was brought here. Not because my Blog entry was not the correct place, since I did offer opinion about Clans, but because posting replies and Moderation may be handled more easily.
I like fire's line of thinking. Keep the private clans and your more personal, everyday non-gaming related conversation there, but if you're discussing game related stuff, why not post in the main forum and get a site wide discussion going? This is suppose to be an older gamers community afterall
Just FYI guys,
I'm going to HEAVLY moderate this thread for the sake of an actual adult discussion. If you just want to add something funny, silly, rude, and/or off topic it's just going to be deleted. This is a great converstation to have and it doesn't need to be muddled by insults or derailed by non-sense.
Then how did the site end up so sucessful and have such traffic a few years ago? The clan fourm model has exsisted since day one. What changed?
Since doodi said it, I'll let him answer
That's actually an easy question to answer. When the site first started, it was formed around 1 game, Halo. Yes there were "clans" on 2o2p but the truth is those clans were started more to talk about strategies then any other reason. Obviously we all we're super best friends yet so the main forums we THE area to talk about Halo.
Soon after the launch we got ourselves on Xbox Magazine where we were talked about as one of the only older gamers clans for people over 25 years and up. That created a huge influx of members who neither had a clan, nor knew what a clan was for. The main forums thrived as the only place to talk about Halo. Again, Halo was the only game we supported.
So because our member base was all tied up in one game and we were not even CLOSE to prepared for this influx of players we were left with little option other then to create more clans. We had no idea how to run site wide events, who would lead, mod, keep track of members, etc. It was basically the wild west at that time. And so the idea of clans on 2o2p started....
This was fine for a while because for the most part clans were still getting to know each other. With that in mind, conversation about Halo flowed freely in the main forums with our occasional outburst about politics or religion that created drama bombs the size of a small country.
Now, flash forward to a few years latter and we start seeing the rise of other games. COD gets popular, WoW takes hold, Gears of War is released, and the player base starts to shift in new directions. Clans now start to take on a whole new meaning. They are no longer about the game they play but morph into a "side" site within 2o2p. They become their own communities that ALSO play multiple games. This time period is what I see as the beginning of the end.
From this point on clans grow in size. On the heels of our success clans can easily find new members for new games and grow their ranks. Some then realize their connection to 2o2p is more of Host-parasite type and after they are done feeding, leave to become their own "Over 25 Premier Gaming Site."
This begins the cycle of apathy and down turn. Support for donations takes a huge nose dive (currently at 30 dollars per month with 4 people supporting), clans with long ages create even deeper roots and lock down more of the conversation. All talk goes internal and communication with the out side world stops. Some clans that manage to still grow leave, and others stay content with their 5-9 people. New members that show up see no real traffic in the forums and therefor have no reason to contribute so they leave. You are now left with 2o2p 2012. Welcome to the future.
Get SCC online so I can sign up once and have recurring donations. I will gladly help promote it right after I sign up. I'm not trying to criticise but you don't make it easy for someone to donate. We found out yesterday that there are a ton of people that didn't even know you could donate.
As far as clan activity...I can say that 2old2pwn's clan activity hasn't wavered. We have currently 96 members and I would say that around 50 members game with clan members at least once a week. This is across all games the clan plays. We still have events. We still participate in site events (recently BF3 mixer and MW3). We still have a couple members every month we drop for inactivity. We still have at least a couple people a month apply for membership. Really the only change recently is the number of posts both in and out of the clan forum.
Without starting another argument...I attribute this to difficulties with V3 (not attributing it to the platform...or the users...lets just say difficulties.) It got a little more difficult to post for some folks...so they post less. I can honestly say though that I think our clan is healthy, active and well connected.
Aside from the financial contributions, I think we still have the same level of contributions to the site (twitter, podcast, articles, shows, moderators, etc.)
Halo 2. This site was built on it. There were hardly any other Xbox online multiplayer games. There were a dozen clans here where the only game to play was halo, and you hooked up with a clan based on your playsytle, level of commitment, etc.
A few of my previous comments in the staff forum:
I must say I do not agree with disbanding clans. I am 100% against it.
Flooding the general forum after disbanding clans may increase activity for a certain time, but not forever. I think it is safe to assume that a lot of people here have an introvert personality and that they do not want to be in a giant FFA bowl of threads, posts, and other members of the site. Just because one mod can run his clan successfully, does not mean it will work in the main forum. All mods/clans have different personalities and tolerances.
We have a recruiting process we go through with each clan member, to make sure they are a good fit for our clan. For our family. We don't just add anyone. I learned this from 2old2pwn back when I joined the site in the H2 days, and saw how successful that made them, and I adopted it. Quality over quantity. People post in our forum about each other's birthdays, anniversaries, births and deaths. You wouldn't have that in a regular forum. Our clan nights are also a privilege to our members. Only clan members may participate in games on clan nights. We have several people that can only be on for those 2 nights per week, and they want to spend the time with their clannies, and not in a room with a bunch of randoms, which is why we made this rule when 2old2playhalo was formed over 5 years ago, and it has worked ever since.
Long story short: I see what your problem is, but I don't think this is the answer, nor am I sure how to fix it. I, more than anyone, realize that there would be no 2old2playHalo without 2old2play. But, if the dissolution of clans is what happens next, I have a very strong feeling that 2o2p would loose all 74 of our existing clan members. I am in no way saying that as a threat, or to be a dick, or anything of that nature. I'm saying that because I know my clannies very well, and that is what I think will happen.
Interesting question Blue. Can one simply pay for the privelege of having a private clan forum? I am pretty sure we could make that happen easily in our clan.
Again, this isn't about being a bad site member. It's about site growth and sustainability