I would urge some of you to go read the first post, the part in red I can't moderate this thread, I can't ban, I can't give time outs. I can simply ask you debate content, not indulge in childish name calling. Those of you that call youselves moderators should really cop on. If you have a problem with a post or a poster...Take it to PM don't fight it out in public, and don't fight it out here!...I like this little thread, I see it as my little corner of this site where like minded folk can gather, chew the fat, have a moan, or just post Otters. I don't care what subject comes up, I don't care what people moan about, I don't care who posts here. I do care when people come here attacking each other, getting personal and acting like spoiled kids. Indulge your inner child by all means, just not the tantram thowing, breath holding brat part.
Johhny, most of the shit slinging was the console crapfest. that's settled, finally, and it wasn't in here.
We try to avoid all that serious tech nerd bitchslapfest and simply nickname each other after body parts n such.
We pride ourselves on absolutely no useful information or actions occurring in here! Surprisingly, we're kinda popular, like Seinfeld was I guess?
Nail on the head Oldschool, and we will be back to handing out no information and being our usual inactive selves right here and right now!
That calls for your best Otter pic! I did find a totally useless vid featuring Boobies and Kittens on Farcebook I was keen to share...but it wouldn't play ball.
Holy shit. See what happens when I go to Walmart?? The thread becomes 29 posts longer, at least half of them angry.
As for personal attacks in Off Topic threads, here's my (unwanted) opinion: most of them are directed at someone who asked for it. Some jumped up little prick comes into a thread, and attacks someone because of their opinion on something. The rest of us see that the innocent guy is being talked to like he's a stupid piece of garbage, and we get mad. Some of us go into said thread and call the jumped up little prick out. Because he is, after all, a jerk. The mods let it go when jerks are jerks, as long as they aren't name calling. While I understand this, IMO THEY need to understand that in these instances, the community steps in to moderate. I know of several sites that are THRIVING, with little to no moderation in the official sense. You go to a thread on their site, you start shit, they will chase you away. They (site users) will relentlessly make it their job to say whatever they feel you deserve. And yet their sites grow and thrive. I'm not saying that's what 2o2p should become. What I'm saying is, there needs to be a little leeway in letting us police ourselves. When I'm looking at a site for the first time and see a guy be a dick to someone just because they said "I don't like this game and here's why"...and then I see three people tell that guy off for being a dick, I LIKE that. I'm comfortable knowing if someone is a dick to me, others may have my back.
There's either got to be extremely heavy handed moderation, or we moderate ourselves to some degree, or there's no moderation at all.
As for threads getting derailed, I don't get why people become upset about that. Hell I've derailed my own threads! If its done to the point that people can't discuss the OT at all, fine I get it. But what's wrong with the "Xbox one general rumor fuckery" type thread?? There are multiple conversations in one thread. I asked a question about something that had been posted I think a day before. There was a discussion about something else in between my question and someone else's answer. I see no problem with that happening in ANY thread? A couple of jokes thrown in that are off topic...so what?? As long as people who want to discuss the OT can go back in and restart the conversation...how does that hurt anyone? Again, as an outsider when I first joined, I thought that sort of thing kept the site fun. Sites that are over moderated, every thread sticking to nothing but the OT, etc...it's kind of boring. Maybe that's just me??
Kat there is a another option, lets call it invisible moderation. This is where the moderation happens behind the scenes. So...Someone is a dick, a mod is alerted, the mod PM's the Dick explaining where and why he has transgressed and to please cool it (a post report button helps here) If Dick cools it, no further action and no one is any the wiser. Dick doesn't cool it, posts another Dickish post, moderator is already monitoring the thread, steps in removes Dicks post and PM's the Dick explaining why the post is removed and for the last time cool it. No one is any the wiser. Dick post a dickish post one last time...Post removed, Dick given time out. During this the thread carries on, people happily posting, the moderation is not played out in the open, the moderaters do not have a slanging match in public. The Dick is not berated in public, the Dick may just be having a bad day, and just needs time to cool.
No moderation works well on smaller forums, or places where everyone has a common interest of a more specific nature than just gaming. But here? With hundreds of members...Moderation needs to be done, quietly, professionally and without fanfare. Done right it is almost invisible, and people can just get on with posting, slagging, and generally having fun. It's less fun for the Mod, they need to be calm, and scrupulously fair. It's a Job, unpaid and for the most part thankless.
The powers that be deem this ridiculous so tis but my opinion, and as such worthless. But it is another option.
Kat there is a another option, lets call it invisible moderation. This is where the moderation happens behind the scenes. So...Someone is a dick, a mod is alerted, the mod PM's the Dick explaining where and why he has transgressed and to please cool it (a post report button helps here) If Dick cools it, no further action and no one is any the wiser. Dick doesn't cool it, posts another Dickish post, moderator is already monitoring the thread, steps in removes Dicks post and PM's the Dick explaining why the post is removed and for the last time cool it. No one is any the wiser. Dick post a dickish post one last time...Post removed, Dick given time out. During this the thread carries on, people happily posting, the moderation is not played out in the open, the moderaters do not have a slanging match in public. The Dick is not berated in public, the Dick may just be having a bad day, and just needs time to cool.
No moderation works well on smaller forums, or places where everyone has a common interest of a more specific nature than just gaming. But here? With hundreds of members...Moderation needs to be done, quietly, professionally and without fanfare. Done right it is almost invisible, and people can just get on with posting, slagging, and generally having fun. It's less fun for the Mod, they need to be calm, and scrupulously fair. It's a Job, unpaid and for the most part thankless.
The powers that be deem this ridiculous so tis but my opinion, and as such worthless. But it is another option.
That actually kind of makes sense, bordering on genius. Well done, sir!
Kat there is a another option, lets call it invisible moderation. This is where the moderation happens behind the scenes. So...Someone is a dick, a mod is alerted, the mod PM's the Dick explaining where and why he has transgressed and to please cool it (a post report button helps here) If Dick cools it, no further action and no one is any the wiser. Dick doesn't cool it, posts another Dickish post, moderator is already monitoring the thread, steps in removes Dicks post and PM's the Dick explaining why the post is removed and for the last time cool it. No one is any the wiser. Dick post a dickish post one last time...Post removed, Dick given time out. During this the thread carries on, people happily posting, the moderation is not played out in the open, the moderaters do not have a slanging match in public. The Dick is not berated in public, the Dick may just be having a bad day, and just needs time to cool.
No moderation works well on smaller forums, or places where everyone has a common interest of a more specific nature than just gaming. But here? With hundreds of members...Moderation needs to be done, quietly, professionally and without fanfare. Done right it is almost invisible, and people can just get on with posting, slagging, and generally having fun. It's less fun for the Mod, they need to be calm, and scrupulously fair. It's a Job, unpaid and for the most part thankless.
The powers that be deem this ridiculous so tis but my opinion, and as such worthless. But it is another option.
That actually kind of makes sense, bordering on genius. Well done, sir!
Heh, it's standard operating procedure for forum moderating, I can't claim to have invented it. Almost everything is done in three steps, the third being the last option, so three warning ending in time out (usually 24 hours) then three time outs, 24 hours, one week, one month. With the forum ban being the last thing done after agreement with the admin. Everything being done via PM. All mods follow the same rules, so there is consistency and as I say it happens in background. Only then when posts are reported, so it is community driven, and only then if there is good reason and not someone being over sensitive. After a while just a mod posting that he is monitoring a thread is usually enough to calm things down.
Kat there is a another option, lets call it invisible moderation. This is where the moderation happens behind the scenes. So...Someone is a dick, a mod is alerted, the mod PM's the Dick explaining where and why he has transgressed and to please cool it (a post report button helps here) If Dick cools it, no further action and no one is any the wiser. Dick doesn't cool it, posts another Dickish post, moderator is already monitoring the thread, steps in removes Dicks post and PM's the Dick explaining why the post is removed and for the last time cool it. No one is any the wiser. Dick post a dickish post one last time...Post removed, Dick given time out. During this the thread carries on, people happily posting, the moderation is not played out in the open, the moderaters do not have a slanging match in public. The Dick is not berated in public, the Dick may just be having a bad day, and just needs time to cool.
No moderation works well on smaller forums, or places where everyone has a common interest of a more specific nature than just gaming. But here? With hundreds of members...Moderation needs to be done, quietly, professionally and without fanfare. Done right it is almost invisible, and people can just get on with posting, slagging, and generally having fun. It's less fun for the Mod, they need to be calm, and scrupulously fair. It's a Job, unpaid and for the most part thankless.
The powers that be deem this ridiculous so tis but my opinion, and as such worthless. But it is another option.
That actually kind of makes sense, bordering on genius. Well done, sir!
Heh, it's standard operating procedure for forum moderating, I can't claim to have invented it. Almost everything is done in three steps, the third being the last option, so three warning ending in time out (usually 24 hours) then three time outs, 24 hours, one week, one month. With the forum ban being the last thing done after agreement with the admin. Everything being done via PM. All mods follow the same rules, so there is consistency and as I say it happens in background. Only then when posts are reported, so it is community driven, and only then if there is good reason and not someone being over sensitive. After a while just a mod posting that he is monitoring a thread is usually enough to calm things down.
As surprisingly as it may seem, this method has been used on this site. The problem is the public/private abuse that can arise from the community for such moderation and having the right people that can weather such abuse.
I have been here for all 3 versions and the 40+ moderators, some who are friends. The biggest problem, IMO, is having a community wide definition of "dick" and "dickish" that all agree on; and when/if it is appropriate to be or act like one.
As surprisingly as it may seem, this method has been used on this site. The problem is the public/private abuse that can arise from the community for such moderation and having the right people that can weather such abuse.
I have been here for all 3 versions and the 40+ moderators, some who are friends. The biggest problem, IMO, is having a community wide definition of "dick" and "dickish" that all agree on; and when/if it is appropriate to be or act like one.
Had to quote this because of how import and true it really is. The idea that Knight has isn't a new one and all the mods on 2o2p from past to present follow this basic structure. We have a warning, 2 week ban, banned, system as even DEEP can attest to. The issue is that what one considers "dickish" or "too far" varies so wildy its impossible to enforce.
That's not just between moderator and member either. Wev'e had millions of situations where a mod will give a warning only to have the other mods not think one was needed. This is no black and white situation that can be applied to all situations. Many people say, "just warn the guy who started it," but some of this fights start long before the first post and even start outside the site itself.
Just to give you a recent example we had a mod only 8 days ago sent a private message to another member based on a thread. Member disagreed and the mods were split. Who's right? Do you then tell mods they can't have the power to issue warnings? Do all mod decisions have to go through me? That would really nuder the power of being a mod and almost make it pointless I'd think.
As surprisingly as it may seem, this method has been used on this site. The problem is the public/private abuse that can arise from the community for such moderation and having the right people that can weather such abuse.
I have been here for all 3 versions and the 40+ moderators, some who are friends. The biggest problem, IMO, is having a community wide definition of "dick" and "dickish" that all agree on; and when/if it is appropriate to be or act like one.
Had to quote this because of how import and true it really is. The idea that Knight has isn't a new one and all the mods on 2o2p from past to present follow this basic structure. We have a warning, 2 week ban, banned, system as even DEEP can attest to. The issue is that what one considers "dickish" or "too far" varies so wildy its impossible to enforce.
That's not just between moderator and member either. Wev'e had millions of situations where a mod will give a warning only to have the other mods not think one was needed. This is no black and white situation that can be applied to all situations. Many people say, "just warn the guy who started it," but some of this fights start long before the first post and even start outside the site itself.
Just to give you a recent example we had a mod only 8 days ago sent a private message to another member based on a thread. Member disagreed and the mods were split. Who's right? Do you then tell mods they can't have the power to issue warnings? Do all mod decisions have to go through me? That would really nuder the power of being a mod and almost make it pointless I'd think.
Hmm...Well, it's not up to members to agree or disagree. A decision by a mod based on a code of conduct is final, if it is based on a clearly defined code of conduct, one that all members sign up to, then there is no reason to have disagreement. I want it clear that I am not at any point talking of heavy handed, constant monitoring, or leaping on every perceived infraction. 99% of the time there is no reason for a mod to step in here, but it is when they do I see what is for me odd behavior. Mods ranting and arguing with members on threads...This adds fuel to any situation. Threads allowed to degenerate to the point they have to be locked. In one instance another thread opened that was misnamed, and almost designed to hide it's subject matter. I'm not having a go at anyone here, this is the way things are done here and it is the system I question not those working within it.
Yes I totally understand that situations can start off site, faced that one myself. That is where you have to draw a line. It's not the job of a mod to police the internet, just the one tiny corner he or she is responsible for. It is what a member does here, not elsewhere that is the issue. Also yes there are those clever sods that can work away never actually breaking any rules but still be trolling, and little diamonds like our Jones who delights in playing the role of agent provocateur and is a walking talking grey area all by himself LOL
No all mod decisions would not go through you, just as in all things there is a structure, forum mods, responsible for forums, Global mods responsible for the site as a whole. Only when all moderating has failed and a site ban is to be issued would you be the one to make that decision. Outside of that your team should be capable of dealing with the day to day business. There are always grey areas, but the tactic of giving folk enough rope to hang themselves will often add the required clarity.
Ah look Dood, we already agreed to disagree, we could go around and around the same roundabout forever, and you have better things to do. Sure things have wandered along mostly happily for the last eight years, I hope your efforts to revamp the site see's it into the next eight and beyond.
There's probably a lesson to be learned here, but I'm not sure what it would be. I would like to think that the moral of the story is "Don't Fuck With Voltron," but that is a shitty moral and in no way represents what really transpired. Expressing yourself through the written word only really does lend itself readily to misinterpretation. I recently, within the last three years, took a psychology class and our textbook stated the actual words we use are only 15% of human communication...the rest is picked up through facial expressions, body language, intonation, and (probably) volume...although the last wasn't specifically mentioned. What offends someone on a written page could be offset with a smile IRL, and sarcasm loses a lot of its punch on the page....forums are a terrible way to communicate. This is why I think that our LAN is such a great idea...you get to meet the folks that you have abused on the forums over the course of a year and shake hands...either that or have an argument with a live audience. I really am looking forward to the LAN this year and catching up with the folks that I have already met (yes, even Dixon) and meeting some of the newer guys...I just hope that some of the broke-ass Forza guys show up this year.
There's probably a lesson to be learned here, but I'm not sure what it would be. I would like to think that the moral of the story is "Don't Fuck With Voltron," but that is a shitty moral and in no way represents what really transpired. Expressing yourself through the written word only really does lend itself readily to misinterpretation. I recently, within the last three years, took a psychology class and our textbook stated the actual words we use are only 15% of human communication...the rest is picked up through facial expressions, body language, intonation, and (probably) volume...although the last wasn't specifically mentioned. What offends someone on a written page could be offset with a smile IRL, and sarcasm loses a lot of its punch on the page....forums are a terrible way to communicate. This is why I think that our LAN is such a great idea...you get to meet the folks that you have abused on the forums over the course of a year and shake hands...either that or have an argument with a live audience. I really am looking forward to the LAN this year and catching up with the folks that I have already met (yes, even Dixon) and meeting some of the newer guys...I just hope that some of the broke-ass Forza guys show up this year.
Post of the Month Sarcasmo lots of truth written.
Parcells has participated (OK most of the time it was encouraged if I want to keep my job but none of that matters) in many of those corporate communication courses where they divulge words play a very small part of communication. This saddens Parcells for the journalism profession as blogs, twitter and the like have taken over traditional research. I guess perception really is reality :(
Last I heard is was going to be somewhere "West," which is probably less specific than you were hoping for. Doodi said that he would have some more info on that around the time the new consoles launch...but he definitely said that it would not be held in Texas.
Last I heard is was going to be somewhere "West," which is probably less specific than you were hoping for. Doodi said that he would have some more info on that around the time the new consoles launch...but he definitely said that it would not be held in Texas.
Just curious at this point. If we're looking at the next 4-6 months for the LAN, I'll probably have to wait till the next one thanks to a bunch of stupid home improvement stuff that conspired to screw up every idea I had with any of our discretionary cash this summer.
What Jones said about communication is totally true. My youngest brother and I have had two occasions where we had huge fights because we were communicating through texts and messages, and one if us misunderstood what the other was trying to say. I find myself posting on this site, putting disclaimers up so what I'm about to say wont be taken as an insult or me trying to start a fight.
Ah it would be good to go to the LAN, 'cause Jones is spot on, we do only get a small part of our communication, all the rest is lost, and a personal meeting helps to flesh out personalities. Ireland is a long way off though.
My third job is writing humor articles for a political website which I will leave unnamed...I don't discuss video games over there and don't I talk about politics here. However, my Twitter account has become a weird mixture of all of my interests...namely video games, politics, heavy metal, and arguing. I try to follow self-imposed rules of engagement while arguing politics (it's always politics)on Twitter: avoid profanity during an altercation, try not to resort to name calling, and explain my position without fault finding the other guy. When all else fails, as Johnny pointed out, I will beat them to death with the longest words I can possibly spell: I'm not always the smartest guy in the room but I do possess writer's vocabulary. I should point out that my rules of engagement have only ever worked to escalate the situation, I've never really been able to make the other guy "get it" and telling someone to piss off only seems to motivate them to continue the conversation. I have tried to implement these same techniques to disagreements here at 2o2p with the same disastrous results. I'm not a great debater but I'm real good at pissing people off...it's a gift. Like everyone else here, I'm very passionate about the site, and about video games, and like many of the gamers I play, race, and communicate with, I have issues with authority and thrive in a chaotic environment...and I see that same attribute displayed by other members on the site. Some folks will toe the line while the rest of us cross it so fast that we never knew it was there. Inevitably, our passion for what we do in our spare time combined with different attitudes regarding authority gives our moderators an impossible task. Some folks would never even bat an eye at having a post edited or deleted while I, on the other hand, would almost rather be banned for a week than have someone fiddle with what I wrote. There is no moderation policy that will work for everyone in every given situation. I would never want to moderate one of these forums, and while I do not always agree with Dixon, the other mods, or even Doodi, I appreciate the fact that we have moderators and would like to thank them for what they do here. I'm still a dick, and we will butt heads again, but I'm real fucking glad you guys are here.
It does indeed, for heavons sake even Jones is at it. It's like I stumbled into some alternative universe. Protest uphelp...Down with this sort of thing!
It does indeed, for heavons sake even Jones is at it. It's like I stumbled into some alternative universe. Protest uphelp...Down with this sort of thing!
Knight,
Allow Parcells to degrade the thread for now…. We all get it, you and Doodi agree to disagree but you may wish to consider stop questioning every Post that he constructs with the same old rhetoric.
Doodi’s last post reiterated pretty clearly how 2O2P has tried numerous angles of forum moderation and how nothing has ever worked as desired. Doodi wrote…” The issue is that what one considers "dickish" or "too far" varies so wildy its impossible to enforce.” No reason to doubt this whatsoever so how exactly do you overcome this reality while maintaining consistency in enforcing your forum guidelines?
Then you propose your solution along the lines of…” A decision by a mod based on a code of conduct is final, if it is based on a clearly defined code of conduct, one that all members sign up to, then there is no reason to have disagreement.” Doodi has also mentioned how Mods in the past have disagreed so obviously Doodi sucks because he can’t come up with a “clearly defined” code of conduct. I challenge you to come up with a “clearly defined” code of conduct. You know the kind, one where EVERYONE understands 100% completely what is white and what is black. If you want Parcells to review your final product send it over cause I’m pretty sure I can find holes in it making you just as not perfect as Doodi.
It does indeed, for heavons sake even Jones is at it. It's like I stumbled into some alternative universe. Protest uphelp...Down with this sort of thing!
Knight,
Allow Parcells to degrade the thread for now…. We all get it, you and Doodi agree to disagree but you may wish to consider stop questioning every Post that he constructs with the same old rhetoric.
Doodi’s last post reiterated pretty clearly how 2O2P has tried numerous angles of forum moderation and how nothing has ever worked as desired. Doodi wrote…” The issue is that what one considers "dickish" or "too far" varies so wildy its impossible to enforce.” No reason to doubt this whatsoever so how exactly do you overcome this reality while maintaining consistency in enforcing your forum guidelines?
Then you propose your solution along the lines of…” A decision by a mod based on a code of conduct is final, if it is based on a clearly defined code of conduct, one that all members sign up to, then there is no reason to have disagreement.” Doodi has also mentioned how Mods in the past have disagreed so obviously Doodi sucks because he can’t come up with a “clearly defined” code of conduct. I challenge you to come up with a “clearly defined” code of conduct. You know the kind, one where EVERYONE understands 100% completely what is white and what is black. If you want Parcells to review your final product send it over cause I’m pretty sure I can find holes in it making you just as not perfect as Doodi.
p.s. Miss racing with you bud!
Parcells, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting you've heard this before.
Don't show me the problem without offering up a solution. Horribly paraphrased perhaps, but I know you've heard this somewhere.
My OPINION people, is simply this.
Post a clearly worded policy, and then hold your moderators AND posters to it. I would also SUGGEST that the decisions made by the moderators be agreed upon BY THE MODERATORS in mass, quietly, before actions of a serious nature are taken.
At work we segregate the problematic parts/materials, protect the immediate customer, and then identify the root cause and correct the source hpefully preventing further occurences of similar nature/source.
IE: Segregate the problematic post (delete, reword, whatever as quietly as possible) warn the poster in private and if it is a SERIOUS or repeated issue, gather the wagons and make a decision, doesn't have to be unified, but a majority, and then carry it out, again in private, as suggested way up above somewhere. that way the thread is cleaned, if warranted, the poster is warned immediately, and the decision, if it's a big one, isn't dropped on one lone ranger, who just might not want to make it on his own anyway?
Just leaking random thoughts. I know anything organized reduces the fun factor and makes it way more like work, so I'm patently opposed already and I suggested it, but hey, IF it's needed, I'm willing to discuss it.
Parcells, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting you've heard this before.
Don't show me the problem without offering up a solution. Horribly paraphrased perhaps, but I know you've heard this somewhere.
My OPINION people, is simply this.
Post a clearly worded policy, and then hold your moderators AND posters to it. I would also SUGGEST that the decisions made by the moderators be agreed upon BY THE MODERATORS in mass, quietly, before actions of a serious nature are taken.
At work we segregate the problematic parts/materials, protect the immediate customer, and then identify the root cause and correct the source hpefully preventing further occurences of similar nature/source.
IE: Segregate the problematic post (delete, reword, whatever as quietly as possible) warn the poster in private and if it is a SERIOUS or repeated issue, gather the wagons and make a decision, doesn't have to be unified, but a majority, and then carry it out, again in private, as suggested way up above somewhere. that way the thread is cleaned, if warranted, the poster is warned immediately, and the decision, if it's a big one, isn't dropped on one lone ranger, who just might not want to make it on his own anyway?
Just leaking random thoughts. I know anything organized reduces the fun factor and makes it way more like work, so I'm patently opposed already and I suggested it, but hey, IF it's needed, I'm willing to discuss it.
I like to stuff Pork N Beans up my nose. If I can get just the right amount of nasal suction it's like having a built-in,one-at-a-time bean dispenser.
Segregate posts for deletion or rewording? Some folks take that more personally than the argument itself.
Parcells, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting you've heard this before.
Don't show me the problem without offering up a solution. Horribly paraphrased perhaps, but I know you've heard this somewhere.
My OPINION people, is simply this.
Post a clearly worded policy, and then hold your moderators AND posters to it. I would also SUGGEST that the decisions made by the moderators be agreed upon BY THE MODERATORS in mass, quietly, before actions of a serious nature are taken.
At work we segregate the problematic parts/materials, protect the immediate customer, and then identify the root cause and correct the source hpefully preventing further occurences of similar nature/source.
IE: Segregate the problematic post (delete, reword, whatever as quietly as possible) warn the poster in private and if it is a SERIOUS or repeated issue, gather the wagons and make a decision, doesn't have to be unified, but a majority, and then carry it out, again in private, as suggested way up above somewhere. that way the thread is cleaned, if warranted, the poster is warned immediately, and the decision, if it's a big one, isn't dropped on one lone ranger, who just might not want to make it on his own anyway?
Just leaking random thoughts. I know anything organized reduces the fun factor and makes it way more like work, so I'm patently opposed already and I suggested it, but hey, IF it's needed, I'm willing to discuss it.
I like to stuff Pork N Beans up my nose. If I can get just the right amount of nasal suction it's like having a built-in,one-at-a-time bean dispenser.
Segregate posts for deletion or rewording? Some folks take that more personally than the argument itself.
Yeah that is the toughest decision to make, my solution was always to ask the poster to do it themselves, in fact often folk do that without even being asked once they have calmed down, or realized their post didn't quite say what they meant. But it was always by PM, doing stuff like that in public just pisses folk off and makes them defensive...And as the best form of defense is attack?...
I always was very good at spotting sarcasm as I'm well versed in it's use, after reading the previous posts confidence in my abilities has diminished.
Don't despair Fitzy you remain the master, you're just a little off your game at the moment, it'll come back soon no worries.
I would urge some of you to go read the first post, the part in red I can't moderate this thread, I can't ban, I can't give time outs. I can simply ask you debate content, not indulge in childish name calling. Those of you that call youselves moderators should really cop on. If you have a problem with a post or a poster...Take it to PM don't fight it out in public, and don't fight it out here!...I like this little thread, I see it as my little corner of this site where like minded folk can gather, chew the fat, have a moan, or just post Otters. I don't care what subject comes up, I don't care what people moan about, I don't care who posts here. I do care when people come here attacking each other, getting personal and acting like spoiled kids. Indulge your inner child by all means, just not the tantram thowing, breath holding brat part.
Johhny, most of the shit slinging was the console crapfest. that's settled, finally, and it wasn't in here.
We try to avoid all that serious tech nerd bitchslapfest and simply nickname each other after body parts n such.
We pride ourselves on absolutely no useful information or actions occurring in here! Surprisingly, we're kinda popular, like Seinfeld was I guess?
Nail on the head Oldschool, and we will be back to handing out no information and being our usual inactive selves right here and right now!
That calls for your best Otter pic! I did find a totally useless vid featuring Boobies and Kittens on Farcebook I was keen to share...but it wouldn't play ball.
Holy shit. See what happens when I go to Walmart?? The thread becomes 29 posts longer, at least half of them angry.
As for personal attacks in Off Topic threads, here's my (unwanted) opinion: most of them are directed at someone who asked for it. Some jumped up little prick comes into a thread, and attacks someone because of their opinion on something. The rest of us see that the innocent guy is being talked to like he's a stupid piece of garbage, and we get mad. Some of us go into said thread and call the jumped up little prick out. Because he is, after all, a jerk. The mods let it go when jerks are jerks, as long as they aren't name calling. While I understand this, IMO THEY need to understand that in these instances, the community steps in to moderate. I know of several sites that are THRIVING, with little to no moderation in the official sense. You go to a thread on their site, you start shit, they will chase you away. They (site users) will relentlessly make it their job to say whatever they feel you deserve. And yet their sites grow and thrive. I'm not saying that's what 2o2p should become. What I'm saying is, there needs to be a little leeway in letting us police ourselves. When I'm looking at a site for the first time and see a guy be a dick to someone just because they said "I don't like this game and here's why"...and then I see three people tell that guy off for being a dick, I LIKE that. I'm comfortable knowing if someone is a dick to me, others may have my back.
There's either got to be extremely heavy handed moderation, or we moderate ourselves to some degree, or there's no moderation at all.
As for threads getting derailed, I don't get why people become upset about that. Hell I've derailed my own threads! If its done to the point that people can't discuss the OT at all, fine I get it. But what's wrong with the "Xbox one general rumor fuckery" type thread?? There are multiple conversations in one thread. I asked a question about something that had been posted I think a day before. There was a discussion about something else in between my question and someone else's answer. I see no problem with that happening in ANY thread? A couple of jokes thrown in that are off topic...so what?? As long as people who want to discuss the OT can go back in and restart the conversation...how does that hurt anyone? Again, as an outsider when I first joined, I thought that sort of thing kept the site fun. Sites that are over moderated, every thread sticking to nothing but the OT, etc...it's kind of boring. Maybe that's just me??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fM_uO7INpk
@Kat...pure poetry.
This kinda sums us up. Cute with claws...That's Jones on the right with the cigarette, he always was the black sheep...
Ha ha your best yet.
Kat there is a another option, lets call it invisible moderation. This is where the moderation happens behind the scenes. So...Someone is a dick, a mod is alerted, the mod PM's the Dick explaining where and why he has transgressed and to please cool it (a post report button helps here) If Dick cools it, no further action and no one is any the wiser. Dick doesn't cool it, posts another Dickish post, moderator is already monitoring the thread, steps in removes Dicks post and PM's the Dick explaining why the post is removed and for the last time cool it. No one is any the wiser. Dick post a dickish post one last time...Post removed, Dick given time out. During this the thread carries on, people happily posting, the moderation is not played out in the open, the moderaters do not have a slanging match in public. The Dick is not berated in public, the Dick may just be having a bad day, and just needs time to cool.
No moderation works well on smaller forums, or places where everyone has a common interest of a more specific nature than just gaming. But here? With hundreds of members...Moderation needs to be done, quietly, professionally and without fanfare. Done right it is almost invisible, and people can just get on with posting, slagging, and generally having fun. It's less fun for the Mod, they need to be calm, and scrupulously fair. It's a Job, unpaid and for the most part thankless.
The powers that be deem this ridiculous so tis but my opinion, and as such worthless. But it is another option.
Heh, it's standard operating procedure for forum moderating, I can't claim to have invented it. Almost everything is done in three steps, the third being the last option, so three warning ending in time out (usually 24 hours) then three time outs, 24 hours, one week, one month. With the forum ban being the last thing done after agreement with the admin. Everything being done via PM. All mods follow the same rules, so there is consistency and as I say it happens in background. Only then when posts are reported, so it is community driven, and only then if there is good reason and not someone being over sensitive. After a while just a mod posting that he is monitoring a thread is usually enough to calm things down.
As surprisingly as it may seem, this method has been used on this site. The problem is the public/private abuse that can arise from the community for such moderation and having the right people that can weather such abuse.
I have been here for all 3 versions and the 40+ moderators, some who are friends. The biggest problem, IMO, is having a community wide definition of "dick" and "dickish" that all agree on; and when/if it is appropriate to be or act like one.
Had to quote this because of how import and true it really is. The idea that Knight has isn't a new one and all the mods on 2o2p from past to present follow this basic structure. We have a warning, 2 week ban, banned, system as even DEEP can attest to. The issue is that what one considers "dickish" or "too far" varies so wildy its impossible to enforce.
That's not just between moderator and member either. Wev'e had millions of situations where a mod will give a warning only to have the other mods not think one was needed. This is no black and white situation that can be applied to all situations. Many people say, "just warn the guy who started it," but some of this fights start long before the first post and even start outside the site itself.
Just to give you a recent example we had a mod only 8 days ago sent a private message to another member based on a thread. Member disagreed and the mods were split. Who's right? Do you then tell mods they can't have the power to issue warnings? Do all mod decisions have to go through me? That would really nuder the power of being a mod and almost make it pointless I'd think.
Hmm...Well, it's not up to members to agree or disagree. A decision by a mod based on a code of conduct is final, if it is based on a clearly defined code of conduct, one that all members sign up to, then there is no reason to have disagreement. I want it clear that I am not at any point talking of heavy handed, constant monitoring, or leaping on every perceived infraction. 99% of the time there is no reason for a mod to step in here, but it is when they do I see what is for me odd behavior. Mods ranting and arguing with members on threads...This adds fuel to any situation. Threads allowed to degenerate to the point they have to be locked. In one instance another thread opened that was misnamed, and almost designed to hide it's subject matter. I'm not having a go at anyone here, this is the way things are done here and it is the system I question not those working within it.
Yes I totally understand that situations can start off site, faced that one myself. That is where you have to draw a line. It's not the job of a mod to police the internet, just the one tiny corner he or she is responsible for. It is what a member does here, not elsewhere that is the issue. Also yes there are those clever sods that can work away never actually breaking any rules but still be trolling, and little diamonds like our Jones who delights in playing the role of agent provocateur and is a walking talking grey area all by himself LOL
No all mod decisions would not go through you, just as in all things there is a structure, forum mods, responsible for forums, Global mods responsible for the site as a whole. Only when all moderating has failed and a site ban is to be issued would you be the one to make that decision. Outside of that your team should be capable of dealing with the day to day business. There are always grey areas, but the tactic of giving folk enough rope to hang themselves will often add the required clarity.
Ah look Dood, we already agreed to disagree, we could go around and around the same roundabout forever, and you have better things to do. Sure things have wandered along mostly happily for the last eight years, I hope your efforts to revamp the site see's it into the next eight and beyond.
There's probably a lesson to be learned here, but I'm not sure what it would be. I would like to think that the moral of the story is "Don't Fuck With Voltron," but that is a shitty moral and in no way represents what really transpired. Expressing yourself through the written word only really does lend itself readily to misinterpretation. I recently, within the last three years, took a psychology class and our textbook stated the actual words we use are only 15% of human communication...the rest is picked up through facial expressions, body language, intonation, and (probably) volume...although the last wasn't specifically mentioned. What offends someone on a written page could be offset with a smile IRL, and sarcasm loses a lot of its punch on the page....forums are a terrible way to communicate. This is why I think that our LAN is such a great idea...you get to meet the folks that you have abused on the forums over the course of a year and shake hands...either that or have an argument with a live audience. I really am looking forward to the LAN this year and catching up with the folks that I have already met (yes, even Dixon) and meeting some of the newer guys...I just hope that some of the broke-ass Forza guys show up this year.
Post of the Month Sarcasmo lots of truth written.
Parcells has participated (OK most of the time it was encouraged if I want to keep my job but none of that matters) in many of those corporate communication courses where they divulge words play a very small part of communication. This saddens Parcells for the journalism profession as blogs, twitter and the like have taken over traditional research. I guess perception really is reality :(
Where is the LAN this year?
Just curious at this point. If we're looking at the next 4-6 months for the LAN, I'll probably have to wait till the next one thanks to a bunch of stupid home improvement stuff that conspired to screw up every idea I had with any of our discretionary cash this summer.
What Jones said about communication is totally true. My youngest brother and I have had two occasions where we had huge fights because we were communicating through texts and messages, and one if us misunderstood what the other was trying to say. I find myself posting on this site, putting disclaimers up so what I'm about to say wont be taken as an insult or me trying to start a fight.
Ah it would be good to go to the LAN, 'cause Jones is spot on, we do only get a small part of our communication, all the rest is lost, and a personal meeting helps to flesh out personalities. Ireland is a long way off though.
My third job is writing humor articles for a political website which I will leave unnamed...I don't discuss video games over there and don't I talk about politics here. However, my Twitter account has become a weird mixture of all of my interests...namely video games, politics, heavy metal, and arguing. I try to follow self-imposed rules of engagement while arguing politics (it's always politics)on Twitter: avoid profanity during an altercation, try not to resort to name calling, and explain my position without fault finding the other guy. When all else fails, as Johnny pointed out, I will beat them to death with the longest words I can possibly spell: I'm not always the smartest guy in the room but I do possess writer's vocabulary. I should point out that my rules of engagement have only ever worked to escalate the situation, I've never really been able to make the other guy "get it" and telling someone to piss off only seems to motivate them to continue the conversation. I have tried to implement these same techniques to disagreements here at 2o2p with the same disastrous results. I'm not a great debater but I'm real good at pissing people off...it's a gift. Like everyone else here, I'm very passionate about the site, and about video games, and like many of the gamers I play, race, and communicate with, I have issues with authority and thrive in a chaotic environment...and I see that same attribute displayed by other members on the site. Some folks will toe the line while the rest of us cross it so fast that we never knew it was there. Inevitably, our passion for what we do in our spare time combined with different attitudes regarding authority gives our moderators an impossible task. Some folks would never even bat an eye at having a post edited or deleted while I, on the other hand, would almost rather be banned for a week than have someone fiddle with what I wrote. There is no moderation policy that will work for everyone in every given situation. I would never want to moderate one of these forums, and while I do not always agree with Dixon, the other mods, or even Doodi, I appreciate the fact that we have moderators and would like to thank them for what they do here. I'm still a dick, and we will butt heads again, but I'm real fucking glad you guys are here.
I want to formally protest. All this productive reasoned discussion clearly is violating the rules and format of this thread...
... if we had any...
It does indeed, for heavons sake even Jones is at it. It's like I stumbled into some alternative universe. Protest uphelp...Down with this sort of thing!
Knight,
Allow Parcells to degrade the thread for now…. We all get it, you and Doodi agree to disagree but you may wish to consider stop questioning every Post that he constructs with the same old rhetoric.
Doodi’s last post reiterated pretty clearly how 2O2P has tried numerous angles of forum moderation and how nothing has ever worked as desired. Doodi wrote…” The issue is that what one considers "dickish" or "too far" varies so wildy its impossible to enforce.” No reason to doubt this whatsoever so how exactly do you overcome this reality while maintaining consistency in enforcing your forum guidelines?
Then you propose your solution along the lines of…” A decision by a mod based on a code of conduct is final, if it is based on a clearly defined code of conduct, one that all members sign up to, then there is no reason to have disagreement.” Doodi has also mentioned how Mods in the past have disagreed so obviously Doodi sucks because he can’t come up with a “clearly defined” code of conduct. I challenge you to come up with a “clearly defined” code of conduct. You know the kind, one where EVERYONE understands 100% completely what is white and what is black. If you want Parcells to review your final product send it over cause I’m pretty sure I can find holes in it making you just as not perfect as Doodi.
p.s. Miss racing with you bud!
Parcells, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting you've heard this before.
Don't show me the problem without offering up a solution. Horribly paraphrased perhaps, but I know you've heard this somewhere.
My OPINION people, is simply this.
Post a clearly worded policy, and then hold your moderators AND posters to it. I would also SUGGEST that the decisions made by the moderators be agreed upon BY THE MODERATORS in mass, quietly, before actions of a serious nature are taken.
At work we segregate the problematic parts/materials, protect the immediate customer, and then identify the root cause and correct the source hpefully preventing further occurences of similar nature/source.
IE: Segregate the problematic post (delete, reword, whatever as quietly as possible) warn the poster in private and if it is a SERIOUS or repeated issue, gather the wagons and make a decision, doesn't have to be unified, but a majority, and then carry it out, again in private, as suggested way up above somewhere. that way the thread is cleaned, if warranted, the poster is warned immediately, and the decision, if it's a big one, isn't dropped on one lone ranger, who just might not want to make it on his own anyway?
Just leaking random thoughts. I know anything organized reduces the fun factor and makes it way more like work, so I'm patently opposed already and I suggested it, but hey, IF it's needed, I'm willing to discuss it.
But it should probably be done SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!
Yeah that is the toughest decision to make, my solution was always to ask the poster to do it themselves, in fact often folk do that without even being asked once they have calmed down, or realized their post didn't quite say what they meant. But it was always by PM, doing stuff like that in public just pisses folk off and makes them defensive...And as the best form of defense is attack?...